Hadou.. "Hell" or "Hades", which do you think is the better translation?

[colliric]

I 'd like to ask your position on Matthew 16:18… no not the “rock” thing again… Let’s talk about the second part

“And the gates of Hadou(Greek word) shall not prevail against you”

Hadou is often translated by modern Bibles as either “Hades”, “Death” or “The underworld”(with rare exceptions sporting the traditional word “Hell”).

I personally believe this is a mistranslation which doesn’t take into account the actual word used. Hadou literally translated is actually “house of Hades”, not simply “Hades”, or “death” or “the underworld”. Although it certainly took that nickname of just being “Hades” even in the greek, If you look at it fully, it did not mean that and I don’t think in this passage the second meaning of the word is being used in translations in the right place and context. It simply to me doesn’t logically fit in there as the place Jesus was talking about. Once again he was not talking in greek, but in Aramaic. I think this is another case in the same verse where the Greek isn’t fully able to render to us modern historians what Jesus actually said(with the exception of catholic who know full well what the place Jesus is talking about here is).

The word itself in Greek meant originally “house of hades” I can’t get past that phrase.

To me, what Jesus possibly said was actually this “and the gates of the house of the ruler of the underworld(Or perhaps he simply said “the house of Satan” or “house of The Devil” and yet the greek equilivent word is still clearly Hadou, you could even replace “house” with “domain” or “place”), shall not prevail against you”. To me, the Greek word truncated the whole aramaic passage into one singular word which ancient Greek Christians would understand is not referring to Hades but it is using the wider original meaning of the word(“House of the ruler of the underworld”) in order to talk about the Christian place of damnation.

This certainly supports the Catholic position on the verse.

Just look at how the 4th century Vulgate and the majority of other bibles up to and including the KJV some 1200 years later, render it… Hell(in latin of cause “Inferi”).

I think Jesus when he was talking about “gates” was referring to the gates of hell, which is Satan’s domain or home, I think this is the correct interpretation and therefore “and the gates of hell” is the Correct translation. Jesus to me literally said “and the gates of the house of Satan(who of cause is christianity’s ruler of the underworld) will not rise against you” He was not talking about death(Hadou is a place), certainly wasn’t talking about Hades which is the greek afterlife specifically… no, to me he was talking about Rocks, Gates, keys and an enclosure which contains his nemesis.

 

[Mintaka]

Obviously not evidence, but an analogous Indo-European situation.

Teach Donn (Donn’s House) is a big offshore rock that’s the legendary entrance to the Irish underworld/world of the dead. Donn is the god in charge of said underworld. However, since duns (fortresses) usually had part of the main house underground, you could argue that Donn’s House is the entire underworld, with the visible “House” being merely the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Btw, Teach Donn is one of the places where monks built offshoreI Irish monasteries, IIRC.

 

[richardeekw]

18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (RSV)

To me, I read this verse to mean Peter (The first Pope) of the Catholic Church and the “Catholic Church” will be protected forever (and Jesus assures that Evil cannot crumble it and as we see in profane history it never has and never will, Amen

Anyway, “hell” or “hades”, here is the defination from the Anchor BIBLE dICTIONARY.

HADES, HELL.
The Greek word Hades (hadeµs) is sometimes, but misleadingly, translated “hell” in English versions of the NT. It refers to the place of the dead but not necessarily to a place of torment for the wicked dead.

In Greek religious thought Hades was the god of the underworld; but more commonly the term referred to his realm, the underworld, where the shades or the souls of the dead led a shadowy existence, hardly conscious and without memory of their former life. In early times it seems Hades was usually conceived as a place of sadness and gloom (but not punishment) indiscriminately for all the dead. However, as early as Homer the notion existed that some individuals experienced endless punishment in Hades, and later, especially through the influence of Orphic-Pythagorean ideas, belief in postmortem rewards and punishments in Hades became common. While Greek ideas about the afterlife probably did not influence the origins of Jewish expectations of retribution after death, later Jewish writers sometimes incorporated particular terms and concepts from the Greek and Roman Hades into their own pictures of the afterlife.
The old Hebrew concept of the place of the dead, most often called Sheol (sûeá<oÆl) in the Hebrew Bible, corresponded quite closely to the Greek Hades. Both were versions of the common ancient view of the underworld. Like the old Greek Hades, Sheol in the Hebrew Bible is the common fate of all the dead, a place of darkness and gloom, where the shades lead an unenviable, fading existence. In the LXX therefore Sheol is usually translated as Hades, and the Greek term was naturally and commonly used by Jews writing in Greek.

This Jewish usage explains the ten NT occurrences of the word Hades.
The rise of Jewish belief in resurrection and eternal life had a significant impact on ideas about Sheol/Hades. Resurrection was understood as God’s eschatological act of bringing the dead from Hades back to life. Probably the earliest, simplest idea was that the shades will return from Hades to bodily life. Sometimes they were expected to be raised as spirits to dwell with the angels in heaven. According to a more dichotomous view of human nature, the soul will be brought from Hades, the body raised from the grave, and body and soul reunited in resurrection. Whichever view of resurrection was adopted, Hades became the temporary abode of the dead, between death and the general resurrection at the end of the age; but there was not necessarily any other change in the understanding of Hades.

In most early Jewish literature Hades or Sheol remains the place to which all the dead go (2 Macc 6:23; 1 En. 102:5; 103:7; Sib. Or. 1:81–84; Ps.-Phoc. 112–113; 2 Bar. 23:4; T. Ab. A 8:9; 19:7) and is very nearly synonymous with death (Wis 1:12–16; 16:13; S. Sol. 16:2; Rev 6:8; 20:13), as well as actually synonymous with other OT terms for the place of the dead (“the earth,” “the dust,” Abaddon: 1 En. 51:3; 4 Ezra 7:32; Ps.-Philo 3:10; 2 Bar. 42:8; 50:2). At the resurrection Hades will return what has been entrusted to it (1 En. 51:3; 4 Ezra 4:42; 7:32; 2 Bar. 42:8; 50:2; Ps.-Philo 3:10; 33:3; cf. Rev 20:13)—a notion which expresses God’s sovereignty over Hades (cf. 1 Sam 2:6; Tob 13:2; Wis 16:13).

The dead have been temporarily entrusted by God to the safekeeping of Hades; at the resurrection he will demand them back. Thereafter death will no longer happen, and so the mouth of Hades will be sealed so that it can no longer receive the dead (2 Bar. 21:23; Ps.-Philo 33:3), or, in an alternative image, Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Thus Hades retains its close association with death and is not confused with the place of eternal torment for the wicked after the day of judgment, which was usually known as Gehenna. Even when Hades is portrayed as the fate for which the wicked are heading, in contrast to the eternal life to which the righteous are destined, the traditional characteristics of the place of the dead—darkness and destruction—are often in mind (Pss. Sol. 14:9–10; 15:10, 13; 16:2; Jub. 7:29; 22:22).

To continue

 

[richardeekw]

Continue - ABD definition Hell or hades Part 2 of 3

However, the picture of Hades was affected by the expectation of resurrection and eternal destiny in a further way. The notion of resurrection was connected with that of the judgment of the dead. At the day of judgment, the righteous will receive the reward of eternal life and the wicked the judgment of eternal destruction or eternal torment. This ultimate distinction between the righteous and the wicked was often held to be anticipated during the temporary abode of the dead in Hades. The earliest example is 1 Enoch 22, where Enoch is shown four “hollow places” in which four different classes of the dead are kept until the day of judgment. The early character of this concept is shown by the fact that one of the two classes of the wicked, those who have already been punished for their sins in this life, will apparently be neither rewarded nor punished on the day of judgment, whereas sinners who have not been punished in this life will then receive their judgment. But for all classes Hades is essentially a place of waiting for judgment: the righteous are refreshed with a spring of water while they await the joys of paradise, but the wicked are not said to be punished. They are simply held in detention awaiting trial and condemnation. In later conceptions the classes of the dead are reduced to two. The places where they wait came to be called the chambers or treasuries of the souls (Ps.-Philo 32:13; 2 Bar. 21:33; 30:1; 4 Ezra 4:35, 41; 7:32, 80, 85, 95, 101, 121; cf. Ps.-Philo 15:5: “chambers of darkness” for the wicked; Ps.-Philo 21:9: “the secret dwelling places of souls”; the terminology of chambers may derive from Isa 26:20; cf. 1 Clem. 50:3).

In the extended account of the intermediate state in 4 Ezra 7:75–101, it is explained that after death the souls of the dead have seven days of freedom, during which they see the rewards awaiting the righteous and the torments awaiting the wicked. The wicked are therefore sad in anticipation, and the righteous rejoice in anticipation of the destiny awaiting them, but the rewards and punishments themselves are reserved for the last day. After the seven days the righteous enter their chambers, where they rest in quietness, guarded by angels (7:85, 95). In this account the wicked do not have chambers at all but continue to wander around in tormented awareness of their doom (7:80, 93).
The idea that the eternal punishment of the wicked has already begun in Hades, even before the last judgment, begins to be found occasionally in Jewish literature of the NT period. In this case Hades sometimes becomes the scene not only of darkness and gloom, but also of fire (cf. Sir 21:9–10), which had traditionally been reserved for the torment of the wicked in Gehenna after the last judgment. (1 En. 63:10 seems to be an exceptional case where Sheol itself is the scene of final punishment in fire after the last judgment; cf. perhaps 103:7–8.) Thus in the surviving fragments of Jannes and Jambres we seem to have the first instance of the many stories (later popular in Christianity) in which someone is brought back temporarily from Hades in order to warn the living of the fate of the wicked (it is this possibility which is requested and refused in Luke 16:27–31).

The Egyptian magician Jannes explains to his brother that he is being punished in the fires of the underworld. In the Apocalypse of Zephaniah Hades is equated with the abyss (6:15; 7:9; 9:2), and the seer sees in it the sea of fire and other forms of punishment for the wicked (6:1–2; 10:3–14). (However, neither of these works is certainly of pre-Christian Jewish origin.) Josephus claims that the Pharisees believed there are postmortem rewards and punishments “under the earth” (Ant 18.14).

continue Part 3

 

[richardeekw]

continued - ABD Defination Hell or Hades

In a final development Hades sometimes becomes exclusively the place of punishment for the wicked, while the righteous go at death to paradise or heaven. This may be the case in the Apoc. Zeph. However, we should not expect too much consistency in eschatological concepts. Older images often survive alongside later developments. Thus the Testament of Abraham (Recension A) clearly refers to Hades as the fate of all the dead (8:9; 19:7); but it is not easy to reconcile this with its account of the separation of the souls, who at death go through two distinct gates, one leading to eternal punishment and the other to paradise (11), which is located in heaven (20:12, 14). In Jesus’ story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), which reflects popular conceptions of the afterlife, it seems that only the rich man goes to Hades (though this is not entirely clear), where he is tormented in fire, while Lazarus goes to “Abraham’s bosom” in paradise (cf. T. Ab. A 20:14). The two locations are within sight of each other (cf. 4 Ezra 7:85, 93); but this need not imply that both are in the underworld, since even after the last judgment paradise and Gehenna are said to be within sight of each other (4 Ezra 7:36–38; 1 En. 108:14–15; Apoc. El. 5:27–28).
Other NT references to Hades also reflect Jewish usage. In Acts 2:27, 31, which directly reflect OT usage, Hades is the abode of all the dead before the resurrection. Also directly dependent on OT usage is Matt 11:23 = Luke 10:15 (cf. Isa 14:13–15). The image in Rev 20:13 is a traditional apocalyptic one (1 En. 51:3; 4 Ezra 4:42; 7:32; 2 Bar. 42:8; 50:2; Ps.-Philo 3:10; 33:3), while the personification of Hades, along with death, there and in Rev 6:8, derives from OT usage continued by later writers (for death and Sheol both personified, see Ps 49:14; Isa 28:15; Hos 13:14).

The gates of Hades (Matt 16:18) are traditional. Both the Babylonian Underworld and the Greek Hades had gates, but the image more immediately reflects the OT (Isa 38:10; cf. “gates of death” in Job 38:17; Ps 9:14; 107:18) and later Jewish writings (Wis 16:13; 3 Macc. 5:51; So. Sol. 16:2; cf. Ap. Pet. 4:3). The gates of Hades keep the dead imprisoned in its realm. Only God can open them (cf. Wis 16:13; Ap. Pet. 4:3, which probably reflects a Jewish description of resurrection; Ps 107:16 may have been interpreted in this way). Whatever the precise meaning of Matt 16:18, its reference must be not to the powers of evil, but to the power of Hades to hold the dead in death. A related image is that of the keys of Hades (Rev 1:18), which open its gates (cf. 2 En. 42:1): the risen Christ, victorious over death, has acquired the divine power to release from the realm of death (cf. also b. Sanh. 113a).

For bibliography see DESCENT TO THE UNDERWORLD.
RICHARD BAUCKHAM

End

 

[HailMary]

actually Matthew 16:18 is not saying anything about the Church being “protected” from the powers of Hell, but something quite different

In ancient times, whenever you would speak of the “gates of the city” prevailing or not prevailing, that meant that someone was attacking them.

This verse, along with the establishment of the papacy, is indicating that the Church is actually on the attack!

I was taught that Hades was composed of the abode of the just (bosom of abraham) and the abode of the damned (hell).

Now, since the gates of Heaven are opened, the abode of the Just, the Bosom of Abraham, has no use anymore.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

actually Matthew 16:18 is not saying anything about the Church being “protected” from the powers of Hell, but something quite different

In ancient times, whenever you would speak of the “gates of the city” prevailing or not prevailing, that meant that someone was attacking them.

This verse, along with the establishment of the papacy, is indicating that the Church is actually on the attack!

I was taught that Hades was composed of the abode of the just (bosom of abraham) and the abode of the damned (hell).

Now, since the gates of Heaven are opened, the abode of the Just, the Bosom of Abraham, has no use anymore.

I’m going to have to go with Hail Mary’s interpretation - That whenever the Church headed by Peter goes on the attack, the forces of evil will be defeated. This means using all of the spiritual weapons in the Church’s arsonal - The Gifts of the Holy Spirit - Love, Faith and Hope among others; Participating in and Receiving the Sacraments; Devotions and Vigils; Prayer and Fasting; Reading, Teaching and Preaching the Word at all times; Tithing, Charity and Almsgiving; Using the Electoral Process to elect Public Officials who will advance the Gospel of Life"; and Marches, Walks and all other means of non-violent resistence and political and public activism.

With this in mind, I wonder why our response to evil, heresy and apostasy has often been enfeebled, if not supine.

Jesus also said, “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.” Matt 5:13 NIV

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[colliric]

18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (RSV)

To me, I read this verse to mean Peter (The first Pope) of the Catholic Church and the “Catholic Church” will be protected forever (and Jesus assures that Evil cannot crumble it and as we see in profane history it never has and never will, Amen

Anyway, “hell” or “hades”, here is the defination from the Anchor BIBLE dICTIONARY.

HADES, HELL.
The Greek word Hades (hadeµs)

Stop right there!

Excuse me but let me point out that **hadeµs **is actually a different word to Hadou. Hadou is used in the passage here and fully rendered into English it means “The house of hades”.

hadeµs means just “Hades”, but Hadou fully means “house of Hades(The Greek deity)” and is often just nicknamed into “Hades” because it is kind of like saying “the place where Hades lives” which is of cause Hades(hadeµs). But It is a different word! and it is used here in a different context, not referring at all to the greek conception of it, and not referring at all to “death” or “the underworld”.

Why does it in this passage say “pulai hadou”… fully translated into “the gates of the house of Hades”? Because it is in fact referring to the devil and Hell! It does not say “pulai hadeµs”(“the gates of hades”), referring solely to the place(a word used in other passages of the bible), it says “Hadou”(house of the ruler of the underworld).

The confusion comes to us modern men because the word when translated into English for other ancient Greek works is often swapped for the word “Hades”(Hadeµs) because that is where the Greek deity Hades(which was also his name) ruled(so the word fits for the translation in most cases, but not when used to refer to anything but the Greek version of the afterlife, which of cause is the case here). But it is not being used in the Greek sense of it, it is being used to say “House of the ruler of the underworld” in the passage specifically and does not say the singular word for “Hades”(hadeµs) but another word which can only be translated into English into a phrase meaning “House of hades”.

St Jerome understood this so long ago when he lived in the time when the distinction of the word’s specific meaning was more clear from the other word referring to the Greek afterlife. The infallible church propagated his teaching of that passage’s full meaning even today… His bible is still the official bible of the church, and it says Inferi(Hell, a.k.a the house of the devil).

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Stop right there!

The confusion comes to us modern men because the word when translated into English for other ancient Greek works is often swapped for the word “Hades”(Hadeµs) because that is where the Greek deity Hades(which was also his name) ruled(so the word fits for the translation in most cases, but not when used to refer to anything but the Greek version of the afterlife, which of cause is the case here). But it is not being used in the Greek sense of it, it is being used to say “House of the ruler of the underworld” in the passage specifically and does not say the singular word for “Hades”(ha?deµs) but another word which can only be translated into English into a phrase meaning “House of hades”.

St Jerome understood this so long ago when he lived in the time when the distinction of the word’s specific meaning was more clear from the other word referring to the Greek afterlife. The infallible church propagated his teaching of that passage’s full meaning even today… His bible is still the official bible of the church, and it says Inferi(Hell, a.k.a the house of the devil).

colliric:

I think that’s what Hail Mary & I were trying to get at. And, You’re right about the Greek - Strong’s #86 per StudyLight (1991 Byzantine Greek Text & Nestlé-Aland 26):

studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Matthew+16%3A18&section=0&it=nas&ot=bhs&nt=byz&Enter=Perform+Search

studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Matthew+16%3A18&section=0&it=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search

And, Here’s another Scripture:

Spiritual Warfare - Ephesians 6:10-19 NJB

Finally, grow strong in the Lord with the strength of His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so as to be able to resist the devil’s tactics. For it is not against human enemies that we have to struggle, but against the principalities and the ruling forces who are masters of the darkness of this world, the spirits of evil in the heavens. That is why you must take up all of God’s armor, or you will not be able to put up any resistance on that evil day, or stand your ground even though you exert yourself to the full. So stand your ground, with truth as a belt round your waist, and uprightness a breastplate, wearing for shoes on your feet eagerness to spread the Gospel of Peace, and always carrying the shield of faith so that you can use it to quench the burning arrows of the Evil One. And then, You must take salvation as your helmet and the sword of the Spirit, that is the word of God. In all your prayer and entreaty keep praying in the Spirit on every possible occasion. Never get tired of praying for God’s holy people,…

kofc.duq.edu/scripture/ephesians.html

If we look at the Scripture, I think we can see just about everything we need to have (ouside the Spiritual Gift of Agape which I think is assumed by St. Paul) in order to struggle against both the evil in ourselves and the evil ruling forces and demons who have so much of this world in their grasp.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael