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Catholic_Tom
Guest
I have a protestant friend who feels that this prayer is Blasphemous. I will attempt to explain it though it may prove fruitless, I’ll do my best charitably. Can anyone help me out?
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_Joshua
Guest
Catholic Tom:
There is nothing blasphemous with the prayer, some will find fault with anything Catholic.
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mommy
Guest
Here are some links on Catholic answers that may help
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
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Dan-Man916
Guest
*Hail, holy Queen, *
Gabriel used the word hail to address Mary. If Jesus is our King, then his Mother is our queen. The Queen Mother is always seen in relation to the King.
Mother of mercy,
She is the Mother of CHrist who is our mercy. Therefore, nothing wrong with this statement either.
Mary is the new Eve. This symbolizes her relation to the new Adam, Christ. As Eve brought forth the fruit of the tree to Adam who took and sinned, thus responsible for the fall, so Mary brought forth CHrist, the Incarnate Logos who was responsible for redemption.
*to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. *
This brings to mind the wedding at Cana where the hosts of the wedding went to Mary (notice they didn’t go to Jesus with their problem).
Mary goes then to Jesus, knowing that no Son would say no to His Mother. Mary is our advocate in that as we are the hosts of the wedding who have run out of wine, we ask Mary to be our advocate to Jesus, to fix that, in our lives, that we are unable to fix.
yes, the language is beautiful and poetic, but let’s remember we’re talking about Mom here! and who doesn’t love their Mother enough to use such beautiful language.
The way I see it, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous here at all.
Gabriel used the word hail to address Mary. If Jesus is our King, then his Mother is our queen. The Queen Mother is always seen in relation to the King.
Mother of mercy,
She is the Mother of CHrist who is our mercy. Therefore, nothing wrong with this statement either.
- hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. *
same as above.
Mary is the new Eve. This symbolizes her relation to the new Adam, Christ. As Eve brought forth the fruit of the tree to Adam who took and sinned, thus responsible for the fall, so Mary brought forth CHrist, the Incarnate Logos who was responsible for redemption.
*to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. *
This brings to mind the wedding at Cana where the hosts of the wedding went to Mary (notice they didn’t go to Jesus with their problem).
Mary goes then to Jesus, knowing that no Son would say no to His Mother. Mary is our advocate in that as we are the hosts of the wedding who have run out of wine, we ask Mary to be our advocate to Jesus, to fix that, in our lives, that we are unable to fix.
yes, the language is beautiful and poetic, but let’s remember we’re talking about Mom here! and who doesn’t love their Mother enough to use such beautiful language.
The way I see it, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous here at all.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Dan-Man916 said:
Hi Dan ,I thought Jesus held the title ADVOCATE.1john 2 vs 1
God Bless
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Spoken,if you pray for me you are being my advocate:tsktsk: You are again attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill.Come Home Spoken:crying: God BlessHi Dan ,I thought Jesus held the title ADVOCATE.[1john 2 vs 1
[/QUOTE]
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Dan-Man916 said:
From the modern-day protestant point of view, Mary as Advocate (capitalized) is the biggest problem that I see. According to Scripture, we have one advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ. It doesn’t make sense to “go through” Mary to be with the Son. Over and over again in Scriptures the relationship between the Father and the Son are played out. Mary is mentioned very little in Scriptures and never in relation to the Godhead itself.
Though she bore the Son of God, there’s no indication that she is more than that. The picture is always on Jesus and the Father.
Although she was/is a great holy lady, it is incredible that she is given a status by some that she never held to begin with.
Peace…
F
Fidelis
Guest
Someone on this forum gave the best answer I ever heard. I tried to find the original thread but failed.The best way is to think of it this way: Since Jesus is ultimately our life, our sweetness and our hope, and Mary is his Mother, we can think of Mary as
Mother of mercy,
(Mother of) our life,
(Mother of) our sweetness and
(Mother of) our hope.
Mother of mercy,
(Mother of) our life,
(Mother of) our sweetness and
(Mother of) our hope.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Isn’t ineresting at the wedding of Cana She interceded with Jesus when they ran out of wine.Was it not Her yes that resulted in Jesus being born?Of course some people want to belittle that act and act like Jesus was the Only Son who didn’t have to honor His Mother
This attitude has also been reflected in society in different ways.God Bless
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Hi Lisa,I love you. It might be time for a diapper change though?
God Bless
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Hey,Spoken!Love you too and good dodgeHi Lisa,I love you. It might be time for a diapper change though?
I stand by my statement…come Home:crying: God Bless
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Just to clear the air here…Isn’t ineresting at the wedding of Cana She interceded with Jesus when they ran out of wine.Was it not Her yes that resulted in Jesus being born?Of course some people want to belittle that act and act like Jesus was the Only Son who didn’t have to honor His Mother
I don’t belittle Mary at all. I honor her as the mother of the Messiah and an obedient servant of God. Honoring her in this way is a far cry from the words of the Hail, Holy Queen. I used to think little of her until I came here. I honor her now more than ever before. However, I cannot accept the terms and language of the Hail Holy Queen. There’s a lot in there that is not in keeping with the revealed Scriptures.
Now, as far as the wedding in Cana. Of course, she interceded. And Christ complied with her request. What to make of it though?
One must remember that Christ Himself performed the miracle. And He did it reluctantly. That’s why he asked her why she had to involve Him. What is your meaning of the miracle of Christ in relation to His mother? My view is that He honored her request because she was His mother and who doesn’t want to please their mother???
Peace…
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Hello dear Fidelis,
I like your approach to this. However, it is plain to see that the words in parenthesis are not part of the text of the Hail, Holy Queen. If they were there would be less misunderstanding.
Peace…
R
Rara_Avis
Guest
Catholic Tom:
You have to remember protestants also don’t believe in purgatory. Purgatory being a place of purging and sactification. That we are totally unworthy to stand before the throne of God - with even the slightest of venial sin on our soul. So if they don’t understand this - How are they going to understand what kind of women would be worthy enough to house The Son of God. And how would The Son of God look apon such a women!!!
Mother! whose virgin bosom was uncrossed
With the least shade of thought to sin allied:
Woman! above all women glorified,
Our tainted nature’s solitary boast;
Purer than the foam on central ocean tost,
Brighter than eastern skies at daybreak strewn
With fancied roses, than the unblemished moon
Before her wan begins on heaven’s blue coast,
Thy image falls to earth. Yet some, I ween,
Not unforgiven, the suppliant knee might bend
As to a visible power, in which did blend
All that was mixed and reconciled in thee
Of mother’s love with maiden purity,
Of high with low, celestial with serne."
To honor one who has been the subject of divine, angelic and saintly panegyric, is to use a privilege, and the privilege is heightened into a sacred duty when we remember that the spirit of Christian eulogy as long as Christianity itself would exit. “Honor he is worthy of, whom the king hath a mind to honor” The King of kings hath honored Mary; His divine Son did not disdain to be subject to her, therefore should we honor her, especially as the honor we pay to God, the source of all glory.
Protestants don’t know or understand Who exactly God is … If you do not understand the Omnipotence of God you will not see why His mother HAD to be more than a “just” a mother! It is actually crazy thinking - to think that the Creator of the Universe God who is Infinate and totally beyond our human comprehension could come from “just” a good women… IMPOSSIBLE!
You have to remember protestants also don’t believe in purgatory. Purgatory being a place of purging and sactification. That we are totally unworthy to stand before the throne of God - with even the slightest of venial sin on our soul. So if they don’t understand this - How are they going to understand what kind of women would be worthy enough to house The Son of God. And how would The Son of God look apon such a women!!!
Mother! whose virgin bosom was uncrossed
With the least shade of thought to sin allied:
Woman! above all women glorified,
Our tainted nature’s solitary boast;
Purer than the foam on central ocean tost,
Brighter than eastern skies at daybreak strewn
With fancied roses, than the unblemished moon
Before her wan begins on heaven’s blue coast,
Thy image falls to earth. Yet some, I ween,
Not unforgiven, the suppliant knee might bend
As to a visible power, in which did blend
All that was mixed and reconciled in thee
Of mother’s love with maiden purity,
Of high with low, celestial with serne."
To honor one who has been the subject of divine, angelic and saintly panegyric, is to use a privilege, and the privilege is heightened into a sacred duty when we remember that the spirit of Christian eulogy as long as Christianity itself would exit. “Honor he is worthy of, whom the king hath a mind to honor” The King of kings hath honored Mary; His divine Son did not disdain to be subject to her, therefore should we honor her, especially as the honor we pay to God, the source of all glory.
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Rara_Avis
Guest
EXACTLY - you have said it exactly - yet you don’t understand it!!! Who doesn’t want to please their mother!
This miricle is very clear - Jesus was not ready to start His public life … but at the request of His mother - He did! That is HOW much he answers His mothers requests - For her - He will do anything!
Can we even begin to comprehend the sorrow and pain that Jesus held on the cross - not for Himself but for His greiving mother! She was at the foot of the cross - she was the one weeping for her Beloved Son - She knew what the world had done!! Can you even begin to imagine the pain that this caused Our Lord.
In my life I have many crosses and they never upset me near as much as when I see how much they upset those I love! When I see people cry because of what I endure - that is when my heart breaks! Enduring is easy compared to that!
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Rara Avis:
For such a dogma to be based on philosophy, theory and the saying of “those in authority” is simply not enough. There must be logic, Scriptural evidences and common sense.
Peace…
But you are using mere philosophy to prove your point. There are no Scriptural evidences in your statement - only a grandious theory. You simply posit that an omnipotent God would not have simply a “human” mother be the mother of the Lord Jesus. But, wasn’t she human? If she wasn’t, what was she exactly??? I’m curious.
For such a dogma to be based on philosophy, theory and the saying of “those in authority” is simply not enough. There must be logic, Scriptural evidences and common sense.
Peace…
P
pgeorgejr
Guest
If we go directly to Scripture we can see a picture of Mary as Queen of Heaven in Revelation 12:1-5…Hello dear Fidelis,
I like your approach to this. However, it is plain to see that the words in parenthesis are not part of the text of the Hail, Holy Queen. If they were there would be less misunderstanding.
Peace…
We know who the dragon and the male child are. That leaves only one possible explanation for the woman crowned with stars.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Rara Avis:
Again, you are adding things that are not clear. You are asserting how Christ felt and what He thought during His agony on the cross. How can you know this? Do you have evidences of this? Were you there?
You use your human experiences to justify your reasoning about the feelings and thoughts of Christ. I’m sorry. This will not do. Neither you nor I know the pain and agony of Christ on the cross. No one truly knows what it was like to suffer so much.
I suggest we do not speculate and certainly not declare dogmas over such things.
Peace…
You are correct. I don’t understand with the understanding you seem to have. So, because He would do anything for her, you recommend we pray to her and what else?
Again, you are adding things that are not clear. You are asserting how Christ felt and what He thought during His agony on the cross. How can you know this? Do you have evidences of this? Were you there?
You use your human experiences to justify your reasoning about the feelings and thoughts of Christ. I’m sorry. This will not do. Neither you nor I know the pain and agony of Christ on the cross. No one truly knows what it was like to suffer so much.
I suggest we do not speculate and certainly not declare dogmas over such things.
Peace…
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ahimsaman72
Guest
So by “woman crowned with stars” you conclude that she is “Queen of Heaven”? Don’t you see the symbolic nature of this passage and the entire book of Revelation. For such dogma to be tied up in symbolic language in obscurity without any other references in Scripture is irresponsible and preposterous.
Peace…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Ahimsaman72 said:
BTW…and off topic: Your signature says “Perfect Buddha, Perfect Christ” could you perhaps open a new thread to explain that because Buddha was just a man…Jesus was God incarnate and both 100% God and man in one person. BIG dif.
You miss some very important points about Mary’s position as intercessor for God’s people. I suggest that you do a Hebrew word study on the term “Giberah” and see that since Jesus is the Messiah, the king of Israel, and The King of Kings and Mary is inarguably His mother, that this position is scripturally and traditionally hers. A position that she amply began to demonstrate at the wedding feast in Cana.
BTW…and off topic: Your signature says “Perfect Buddha, Perfect Christ” could you perhaps open a new thread to explain that because Buddha was just a man…Jesus was God incarnate and both 100% God and man in one person. BIG dif.
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