Has hell prevailed against the Church - how do we measure?

[Dorothy]

Isn’t it important to remember that the Church had problems from the very beginning?

Peter denied the Lord three times. Judas betrayed him. All the apostles except for John were not present at the foot of the cross.

But, all of the apostles but Judas were willing to be martyrs for the Lord.

There are those who doubt and allow themselves to fall away, and there are those who cling closer to the Lord through their trials.

Prayer, faith, and perseverance is vital. All the frustrated reasoning in the world should not sway someone who trusts Jesus and is focused on Him.

He will never leave us.

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

If one has a central authority, why does one need the Holy Spirit? Your statement makes no sense. We were guaranteed the Holy Spirit and given the Word of God, not a central authority all wearing the same uniforms.

We were guaranteed the Holy Spirit, true, but how do we know when we are following it? The author of the article made it clear that protestant churches, although they say they have the Holy Spirit, all believe different things. There needs to be some way to know the truth, thus a teacher. The Bible isn’t a teacher of truth (if it was then all Bible Christians would believe the same), it contains truth. We need someone to guide us.

Your equating a lack of central authority with abandonment is a false presumption. There was no central authority for most of the first millenium of the church.

Perhaps central authority was a bad term to use, it does invoke images of a military state. We need a leader or shepherd to guide us, because like all sheep, we are completely hopeless when left to our own designs.

Christ appointed a shepherd to guide us, he told this man three times to take care of his sheep. That man passed on that role to another, and he to yet another.

So from the early days of the Church till now there has always been a shepherd guiding the Church into the fullness of truth, because he is in turn guided by the Holy Spirit.

**Acts 5:29
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! **

Yes, we must obey God, but we are also told to obey men…

Romans 13:1,2 - “Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.”

Hebrews 13:17 - “Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.”

1 Peter 5:5 - “Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters.”