Has Jesus Ever Been Factually Wrong?

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Pieman333272

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An objection I heard for the first time today by an atheist was that if Jesus was God (and therefore God existed), he would be omniscient, and always be right. He said he obviously wasn’t, for two reasons:
  1. He was a Creationist, which, according to the atheist (and actually, me too) is incorrect.
  2. He didn’t make any scientific or mathematical predictions (though he did make theological, moral and philosophical ones that ended up correct). I did succeed in refuting this by reminding him that the apostles wouldn’t have the slightest understanding of most (any) of these concepts and wouldn’t write them down even if they were told, and that that’s not what Jesus came to do, as it would take a very long time to explain math, taking time away from his philosophy and being God Incarnate.
  3. My forum-mate then stated Jesus was wrong on more accounts but oddly didn’t list any.
So, first of all, has Jesus ever been wrong besides point #1? Second, what is a strong response to #1 and any others? Or was he not even wrong about that?
 
Jesus was never wrong.

(though persons can have a wrong understanding…he was never wrong).

Of course all that IS was created. Otherwise it would not exist.

Jesus did not get into “how” creation was created.
 
I feel like a broken record saying this so often, over and over, but:

If somebody makes a claim --for example, somebody says, “Jesus was wrong”. . .

**It is up to THEM to prove this claim by providing examples that can be ‘proven.’ Why should we believe somebody’s unsupported word? **

It is not up to US to go around quoting the entire Bible and the early Church Fathers and every other piece of Catholic Christian teaching in order to ‘refute’ these claims.

Make THEM do their own work. If they claim something, it’s up to THEM to prove.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I feel like a broken record saying this so often, over and over, but:

If somebody makes a claim --for example, somebody says, “Jesus was wrong”. . .

**It is up to THEM to prove this claim by providing examples that can be ‘proven.’ Why should we believe somebody’s unsupported word? **

It is not up to US to go around quoting the entire Bible and the early Church Fathers and every other piece of Catholic Christian teaching in order to ‘refute’ these claims.

Make THEM do their own work. If they claim something, it’s up to THEM to prove.
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I totally agree. Too many people come here making unsupported claims and expect us to refute them.
The onus is on the claimant to produce evidence that we can then read and debate.
 
It’s lucky that an atheist is talking to you and you to him/her. But, you should not be troubled by what they say.

Psalm 1 says (loosely) walk not in the company of the wicked (those who ignore God)
nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sin in the counsel of the scornful (atheists).

Their starting point is that everything religious is wrong, especially if is it Christianity. They’re likely to complain that religion has caused a lot of damage, even more damage to people than anything else. It’s true that evil people have infiltrated religion and used it for evil purposes. Politicians have caused far more damage than religion, period.

The essential truth is that Jesus Christ is God,He came to earth as a man, to die and atone for our sins. The complete story is in the Catholic Church.
 
Note how Jesus never spoke about science or math. Why? Two reasons:

#1: He didn’t come to be a scientist or a mathematician. He came to redeem us
#2: Had He spoken about science and math, He would’ve said things so complicated that nobody would understand them even with parables because He knows how things truly were created down to the last quark (and even smaller).

Jesus never spoke about how the world was created. He never, as far as the Gospels say, spoke about science. You’ve already refuted point #2, point #3 is a fallacious statement because there is zero proof that can be brought up for it, and point #1 is just wrong since Jesus never said anything about how the world was created.
 
As St John notes -Jesus said and did much more than could be written down, so we do not know what else He taught.

The short answer is - NO.
 
MarianD said:
Note how Jesus never spoke about science or math. Why? Two reasons:

#1: He didn’t come to be a scientist or a mathematician. He came to redeem us
#2: Had He spoken about science and math, He would’ve said things so complicated that nobody would understand them even with parables because He knows how things truly were created down to the last quark (and even smaller).

Jesus never spoke about how the world was created. He never, as far as the Gospels say, spoke about science. You’ve already refuted point #2, point #3 is a fallacious statement because there is zero proof that can be brought up for it, and point #1 is just wrong since Jesus never said anything about how the world was created.
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Ah, thanks. And thanks to everyone else too! I’ll correct my forum-mate’s mistakes. 😃 😃
 
Pieman333272 said:
An objection I heard for the first time today by an atheist was that if Jesus was God (and therefore God existed), he would be omniscient, and always be right. He said he obviously wasn’t, for two reasons:
  1. He was a Creationist, which, according to the atheist (and actually, me too) is incorrect.
  2. He didn’t make any scientific or mathematical predictions (though he did make theological, moral and philosophical ones that ended up correct). I did succeed in refuting this by reminding him that the apostles wouldn’t have the slightest understanding of most (any) of these concepts and wouldn’t write them down even if they were told, and that that’s not what Jesus came to do, as it would take a very long time to explain math, taking time away from his philosophy and being God Incarnate.
  3. My forum-mate then stated Jesus was wrong on more accounts but oddly didn’t list any.
So, first of all, has Jesus ever been wrong besides point #1? Second, what is a strong response to #1 and any others? Or was he not even wrong about that?
Click to expand...
:confused: Can you explain this?
 
Pieman333272 said:
An objection I heard for the first time today by an atheist was that if Jesus was God (and therefore God existed), he would be omniscient, and always be right. He said he obviously wasn’t, for two reasons:
  1. He was a Creationist, which, according to the atheist (and actually, me too) is incorrect.
  2. He didn’t make any scientific or mathematical predictions (though he did make theological, moral and philosophical ones that ended up correct). I did succeed in refuting this by reminding him that the apostles wouldn’t have the slightest understanding of most (any) of these concepts and wouldn’t write them down even if they were told, and that that’s not what Jesus came to do, as it would take a very long time to explain math, taking time away from his philosophy and being God Incarnate.
  3. My forum-mate then stated Jesus was wrong on more accounts but oddly didn’t list any.
So, first of all, has Jesus ever been wrong besides point #1? Second, what is a strong response to #1 and any others? Or was he not even wrong about that?
Click to expand...
Pieman

There is another active thread that is trying to calculate how many people crossed the parted sea in the day of Moses. So consider how many witnesses there were of all the things that the Lord their God did in those days and they agreed to do as the Lord God told Moses to tell them.

If you do not trust what God has said and done and the witnesses thereof, then how can you expect, others such as atheists to trust what you say about God, or the Scriptures. If you don’t trust it, they certainly won’t.

Who told man about Creation before man was? Man? The dirt?

If you don’t trust that God spoke to Moses plainly about things that God said and did, then you do not trust that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment thereof. Geneses is written down by the hand of Moses just as the other four books that follow.

He who teaches to not trust what God says and does. Teaches the same as the serpent at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For the method is the same, don’t trust what God says, trust what I say about what God said. He who dares to stand between God’s People and the source of Light seeks to cast his own shadow which is not the Light.

Where is thy faith? Is it in what God says and does? Or in what some one else says about it.

Jer:9:23: Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

It is not our job to prove God, God Proves us, to be one of His by our Trust in Him.
 
It cannot be proven that Jesus was ever factually wrong. The Evangelists simply wouldn’t allow it. How do you attract followers if your prophet and Messiah is not only getting into complex matters of logic, science, math and history but also getting those facts wrong? The Evangelists and later redactors realized that it’s best to have Jesus navigate the middle course discussing only normative and meta- ethics. This is why Jesus is often viewed as something like a Jewish Cynic.
 
Epistemes said:
It cannot be proven that Jesus was ever factually wrong. The Evangelists simply wouldn’t allow it. How do you attract followers if your prophet and Messiah is not only getting into complex matters of logic, science, math and history but also getting those facts wrong? The Evangelists and later redactors realized that it’s best to have Jesus navigate the middle course discussing only normative and meta- ethics. This is why Jesus is often viewed as something like a Jewish Cynic.
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Spoken quite well atheist.

I grow weary of your naturalistic slant on things greater than yourself. The apostles testified as fishermen would. Simple, blunt, and to the point. To say they tried to navigate some middle ground is idiotic. Never has there been more definitive statements put forth by a legitimate philosopher or religious leader. The only people who view Jesus as a Jewish cynic are cynical, agnostic or atheist critics. Try reading the true gospels, not something written two centuries after the fact strictly for the point of promoting a counter agenda to what had been well established centuries before. The apostles went out into hostile territory and would not recant their teachings even unto death. Those like yourselves who never venture pass a keyboard or a coffee shop have no idea what this entails. You purposely avoid the streets I drive to, to box professional boxers(ya know black kids from the projects!! Scary!!!) When I enlisted in the Marine Corps and US Army and when I was on the streets of Baghdad, no one gave a damn about theoretical nonsense that some clueless bureaucrat in Washington came up with, because it was just that. Nonsense. The apostles wouldn’t have given two shits about something that some far-removed from reality self important professor’s idea of a ‘middle ground’ or whatever. When I would write reports for the field and flag grade officers who were my consumers, I wrote the truth around a format, but in no way would I slant the report. No one else I knew would have thought about it either,and I didnt even like the people in the army for the most part. People who had their asses on the line never thought about such things. Just douche bags who have nothing better to do conceive such stupidity. You jeer at the people who actually witnessed the events and gave their lives for the testimony and laud people 2000 years removed in an ivory tower as better witnesses. Your just a smug, sheltered little child who is cynical and hateful about anything that doesn’t have an ulterior motive such as yourself. The fishermen didnt give a **** about politics. Just the truth. Thats why the kept telling it despite the face they were beaten, stoned, filleted, beheaded, gutted, and crucified. Because it was the truth. Because you cannot conceive someone else doing the same is a reflection of your own skewed mentality.
 
Let’s do a little thought experiment. I will stipulate that Rene Descartes was a pretty smart guy. Let’s imagine handing him a manual on a computer server. He would probably see that there was a logical pattern to the material, but because he did not have a context to view the manual, would not get the ideas it entailed. The same pertains to such matters as Creation. Jesus spoke in terms that rural Galileans could easily understand. One of the many miracles God gives us is that we can still use those words today, even if we do not work in a vineyard, fish on the Sea of Galilee, or use Palestinian planting methods.

Now let’s consider the question of truth. It was a common rabbinical practice to state something contrary to fact to show that a story was parabolic rather than factual or historical. So Jesus has a vineyard owner going out to hire workers when he has a manager whose job would be to find workers for the harvest. Is this a lie, or is it an example of Jesus using a contemporary convention of speech? Is hyperbole, another rabbinical convention, a lie or is it a means of getting the listener’s attention?
 
KShaft said:
Spoken quite well atheist.

I grow weary of your naturalistic slant on things greater than yourself. The apostles testified as fishermen would. Simple, blunt, and to the point. To say they tried to navigate some middle ground is idiotic. Never has there been more definitive statements put forth by a legitimate philosopher or religious leader. The only people who view Jesus as a Jewish cynic are cynical, agnostic or atheist critics. Try reading the true gospels, not something written two centuries after the fact strictly for the point of promoting a counter agenda to what had been well established centuries before. The apostles went out into hostile territory and would not recant their teachings even unto death. Those like yourselves who never venture pass a keyboard or a coffee shop have no idea what this entails. You purposely avoid the streets I drive to, to box professional boxers(ya know black kids from the projects!! Scary!!!) When I enlisted in the Marine Corps and US Army and when I was on the streets of Baghdad, no one gave a damn about theoretical nonsense that some clueless bureaucrat in Washington came up with, because it was just that. Nonsense. The apostles wouldn’t have given two shits about something that some far-removed from reality self important professor’s idea of a ‘middle ground’ or whatever. When I would write reports for the field and flag grade officers who were my consumers, I wrote the truth around a format, but in no way would I slant the report. No one else I knew would have thought about it either,and I didnt even like the people in the army for the most part. People who had their asses on the line never thought about such things. Just douche bags who have nothing better to do conceive such stupidity. You jeer at the people who actually witnessed the events and gave their lives for the testimony and laud people 2000 years removed in an ivory tower as better witnesses. Your just a smug, sheltered little child who is cynical and hateful about anything that doesn’t have an ulterior motive such as yourself. The fishermen didnt give a **** about politics. Just the truth. Thats why the kept telling it despite the face they were beaten, stoned, filleted, beheaded, gutted, and crucified. Because it was the truth. Because you cannot conceive someone else doing the same is a reflection of your own skewed mentality.
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Hope you’re considering confession after that. Wrath, ya know, not good. Ranting is good, but confession is better.

And I said nothing about the apostles navigating middle course (not “ground,” as you misquote). I said the Evangelists. And your rant hardly disproves my point, which entails nothing naturalistic about it; it’s just that I don’t view the history surrounding the events separating the resurrection and the canonization of the New Testament quite so traditionally and fundamentalist as you and others. And I’m not quite sure what your beef with me saying that Jesus has been characterized as a Jewish Cynic is; I’m not even sure if you do either. There are elements of Jesus’ sayings which do characterize him as a Cynic. So what?

See you in the body of Christ.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I feel like a broken record saying this so often, over and over, but:

If somebody makes a claim --for example, somebody says, “Jesus was wrong”. . .

**It is up to THEM to prove this claim by providing examples that can be ‘proven.’ Why should we believe somebody’s unsupported word? **

It is not up to US to go around quoting the entire Bible and the early Church Fathers and every other piece of Catholic Christian teaching in order to ‘refute’ these claims.

Make THEM do their own work. If they claim something, it’s up to THEM to prove.
Click to expand...
Ditto. I agree.
 
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