Has Jesus ever questioned God's will?

[anthonyR]

I did. It’s heresy. I recommend you “listen to the Church” (Matt 18:17), not those claiming to be minor prophets, saying they’ve “defined God’s will” for us.

Dave,
I am neither a pagan or a tax-collector of yore.

(If u have ears to listen then the Holy One of God has a few nice words to say to you.
“What so ever he shall bind on earth, will be bound in heaven”.)
If you think this is heresy, ask around.

By the way I have learnt it is better to ask Mary to help you know her Son Better.
Mother knows best.
If you are still asking Just who do you think you are,
The answer is still the same. Come on Dave, life is to short to fight over something that only Jesus can truly answer.
As far as I am concerned, this string is closed for me by The Holy Spirit… Au revoir
SRT

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Dave,
I am neither a pagan or a tax-collector of yore.

(If u have ears to listen then the Holy One of God has a few nice words to say to you.
“What so ever he shall bind on earth, will be bound in heaven”.)
If you think this is heresy, ask around.

By the way I have learnt it is better to ask Mary to help you know her Son Better.
Mother knows best.
If you are still asking Just who do you think you are,
The answer is still the same. Come on Dave, life is to short to fight over something that only Jesus can truly answer.
As far as I am concerned, this string is closed for me by The Holy Spirit… Au revoir
SRT

Emphasis above is mine. You say ask around, but you’re the only one saying the Holy Spirit left Christ.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I find that in some circles, the humanity of Christ is so emphasized that His divinity is somewhat ‘forgotten’, or lessened in some way.

Christ is the Author and Source of those words quoting the Psalm from the Cross. He said the words to the benefit of those standing there that could hear him.

Likewise the baptism of Christ by John in the Jordan. Christ did not need that baptism to start his ministry. That baptism was not done in the formula that is used in the Church, ‘in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit’. Baptism of John was not how we know it today as the descent of the Holy Spirit. It was the supreme and wonderful moment where the Trinity was made manifest to the world. It was for our benefit, not because Christ needed it. The Church was given the formula of baptism from that event. Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit at that event, He was and is one of the holy Trinity and was never separated from the Holy Spirit. John himself said Christ was the one who could give the baptism of Fire.

John answered them all by saying: "I am baptizing you in water, but there is one to come who is mightier than I. I am not fit to loosen his sandal strap. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire. Luke 3:16

 

[504Katrin]

life is to short to fight over something that only Jesus can truly answer.

I would still like to hear your reasoning though why you believe that the Holy Spirit left Jesus? I’m just curious

 

[thirddec]

the most intresting explain I have seen, though I have no idea of how it fits with church teaching is that when we sin we become seperate from God because of the sin. Christ was in total control of himself ; his life and death ;in all the time of the Crucifixion. When he was prepared he accepted the burden of all our sins and in that moment became seperated from God for a moment because he now carried our sins hence the My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. But he is in control of the process as he then returns to the Godhead and takes control of his life/death and gives up his spirit in the time he decides is correct.

it may not be theologically correct but it does carry a certain logic

 

[Salvatore123]

First, the Holy Spirit did not leave Jesus. Only Jesus’s “spirit” left him, that is, that which animated his body - his soul, if you will. “Spirit”, “soul”, and “ghost”, have been used interchangeably for centuries.

Second, how can Jesus question “God’s will” when Jesus is part of the triune Godhead? Remember basic catechism: three persons in one God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus could no more “separate” himself from God than could the other two persons forming the triune Godhead.

Third, Johnbres, you said:

*Why is the clearest interpretation of Jesus’ words on the cross never mentioned? That is, that He was a human being in agony, and felt abandoned by God. He wasn’t just pretending to feel this way, and groaning out the words of the Psalm as some sort of nod-and-wink to the Jews, like, “hey, this is where I am suffering like the righteous man who triumphs.” Rather, he was identifying with human suffering by actually experiencing it in the most extreme manner. He felt abandoned, but was still crying out to God, because he understood that God was still there, but it didn’t feel like it right then.

We should not be afraid of the fact that Jesus was a human being in addition to being God. Too many Catholics don’t go there for a minute because they are worried that Jesus cannot be God if He was too human. You have to accept Jesus’ humanity as well as his divinity. He suffered… *

The answer (in my humble opinion) is that this is not Occam’s Razor example (that is, where we should tend towards simpler theories until we can trade simplicity for increased explanatory power).

You are entirely correct that Christ suffered in every way that a human being would suffer, both physically and mentally.

But - and this is the key - the hypostatic union precludes separating Christ’s nature from his divine nature. Although he was fully human, he was part of the triune Godhead who took human form to serve a purpose. To even suggest that Christ felt abandoned by God would presuppose that Christ was not prepared for the suffering he was about to undergo and that he fell into a weak state.

One thing that is very easy for us to forget is that Christ knew from the beginning of time that he would have to undergo what he did. If we accept (as you suggest) that Christ “lost it” for a moment, then you are implicitly stating that Christ also LOST his divinity for a moment . . . and that was something that could not happen.

Your explanation is definitely an “easy” one to explain what Christ said. That is, until one reads the entire Psalm he was quoting and realizing that he did so for a twofold purpose:

(1) to quicken the minds of the Sanhedrin so that they paused to contemplate and ask themselves, “what did we do in seeking this man’s death?”, and

(2) expressing himself as having unwaivering confidence in God, which is what the entire Psalm is about.

As I mentioned in another thread, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” should have been translated from the Hebrew/Aramaic as: “My God, my God, why have you left me to the fury of my enemies?”

Well, we know why - to redeem mankind. Surely, Christ did not forget that . . .

 

[504Katrin]

but didn’t he also know that he’d be left to the fury of his enemies?
I think what he meant was more something along the lines of “please let me die already cause I’ve already sufffered for so long, and to let me suffer any longer wouldn’t make any sense.”

 

[thirddec]

well the whole discussion probably leads to another thread; how could Christ be truly human while knowing he was God; and if Christ was always God then he was always omnipotent. And the experience of being Human have nothing to do with being omnipotent or omniscient unless your a teenager lol. Did he somehow have a switch ? or some selfwilled forgetfullness in order to maintain his Humanity?

I hope this Question makes sense in the context of this thread?

 

[Salvatore123]

third,

Yes, your question makes sense in that it recognizes/points out our human frailty in that we can never know/understand the hypostatic union and how is it that Jesus, as fully human, was able to function with two different natures - human and divine.

Nothing wrong with calling something a “mystery of faith” and admitting that we do not have the mental capacity to fully understand how God works . . .