Has Rome fallen?

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O.k, first let me ask a favor, if you are not going to take the subject seriously, dont even bother answering. Childish remarks wont be taken seriously. Secondly, the breakage began with the election of a Mason/heretic Roncalli who was John XXIII. Scince he was not Catholic, he cannot be a true Pope. The final breakage came with the finalization of Vatican 2, (under the Mason/heretic Paul VI) which actually teaches heresy.

Maybe doctrine will help you understand. Hear are a couple of instances from Vatican 2 against the historical doctrine of the Catholic Church:

The Heresy that the Church is joined to those who reject her
Lumen Getium #15
"For several reasons the Church recognizes that it is joined to those who, though baptized and so honoured with the Christian name, do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve communion under the successor of St. Peter.

It is a dogma that those who reject the Papacy are not jioned to the Catholic Church.

Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (#3), April 8, 1862.

“There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesss which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apastolis See and the Roman Pontif.”

Pope Pius VI, Charitas (#32), April 13, 1791:

“Finaly, in one word, stay close to us. For one can be in the Church of Christ without being in unity with its visable head and founded on the See of Peter.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#13), June 29, 1896
“Therefore if a man dose not want to be, or to be called, a heretic, let him not strive to please this or that man…but let him hasten before all things to be in communion with the Roman See.”

The heresy that man has a right to be wrong
This final heresy is a result of all the rest and is the sythensis of all the others. This is the doctrine of freemasonry and is the result of the very first sin of Adam and Eve.
Dignitatis humanae #2:

“This Vatican synod declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. Such freedom consists in this, that all should have such immunity from coercion by individuals, or by groups, or by human power, that no one should be forced to act against his conscience in religious matters, nor prevented from acting acording to his concience, whether in private or in public, within due limits.”

Dignitatis humanae #2:
“Therefore this right to non-interference persists even in those who carry out thier obligationsof seeking the truth and standing by it; and the exercise of this practice shal not be curtailed, as long as due public order is preserved…”

This contridicts the syllabus of Errors which was spoken ex-cathedra. Even antipope Benedict XVI admits that it contridicts it. He calls it a counter-syllabus.

Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of errors, Dec. 8, 1864, #77

“In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever.” – CONDEMNED.
#78 “Hence in certain regions of Catholic name, it has been laudably sanctioned by law that men immigrating there be allowed to have public exercises of any form of worship of thier own.” – CONDEMNED.
#55 “The church is to be seperate from the state, an the state from the church.” – CONDEMNED.

There are several other examples that i can give you as long as they dont pull this thread. Let me leave you with one last thing before I close this entry. Rome has even changed the words of Christ himself.

At the Consencration over the Chalice: “This is the cup of my blood… Which will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven.”

The words Christ used as well as the entire history of the Church were, “For this is the chalice of my blood… which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remision of sins.”

This may not seem significant to you, but according to 2 Popes, if you make the change to these very words as has been done, you will not have a valid sacrement…

Any more questions?
Okay - now it’s clear and you have shown your true colors. You either your Catholic and you Believe that the Pope is the vicar of Christ and therefore infallible or your a heretic and believe in YOUR view of the Church. How very Protestant of you.😦
 
…This may not seem significant to you, but according to 2 Popes, if you make the change to these very words as has been done, you will not have a valid sacrement…

Any more questions?
That’s fine, but how do you excuse those popes (or their predecessors) changing the words of consecration from Christ’s words? I don’t mean they changed the meaning of those words, they didn’t, just the words spoken themselves. If it was within these earlier popes’ authority to do this, why should there be a problem with more recent popes exercising this same authority?
 
That’s fine, but how do you excuse those popes (or their predecessors) changing the words of consecration from Christ’s words? I don’t mean they changed the meaning of those words, they didn’t, just the words spoken themselves. If it was within these earlier popes’ authority to do this, why should there be a problem with more recent popes exercising this same authority?
The Church has been around for 2000 yrs- Have we said the Mass the same way all that time? Is the Mass the Apostles said the same as today-? No of course not! Did in change in form and structure -yes! did it change in meaning- no! Did the real Presence Change ?No! Christ said he would not desert the church.
-either you believe that or you don’t You can dance a fast as you can but you can’t get pass that fact.:mad:
 
O.k, first let me ask a favor, if you are not going to take the subject seriously, dont even bother answering. Childish remarks wont be taken seriously. Secondly, the breakage began with the election of a Mason/heretic Roncalli who was John XXIII. Scince he was not Catholic, he cannot be a true Pope. The final breakage came with the finalization of Vatican 2, (under the Mason/heretic Paul VI) which actually teaches heresy.

Maybe doctrine will help you understand. Hear are a couple of instances from Vatican 2 against the historical doctrine of the Catholic Church:

The Heresy that the Church is joined to those who reject her
Lumen Getium #15
"For several reasons the Church recognizes that it is joined to those who, though baptized and so honoured with the Christian name, do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve communion under the successor of St. Peter.

It is a dogma that those who reject the Papacy are not jioned to the Catholic Church.

Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (#3), April 8, 1862.

“There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesss which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apastolis See and the Roman Pontif.”

Pope Pius VI, Charitas (#32), April 13, 1791:

“Finaly, in one word, stay close to us. For one can be in the Church of Christ without being in unity with its visable head and founded on the See of Peter.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#13), June 29, 1896
“Therefore if a man dose not want to be, or to be called, a heretic, let him not strive to please this or that man…but let him hasten before all things to be in communion with the Roman See.”

The heresy that man has a right to be wrong
This final heresy is a result of all the rest and is the sythensis of all the others. This is the doctrine of freemasonry and is the result of the very first sin of Adam and Eve.
Dignitatis humanae #2:

“This Vatican synod declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. Such freedom consists in this, that all should have such immunity from coercion by individuals, or by groups, or by human power, that no one should be forced to act against his conscience in religious matters, nor prevented from acting acording to his concience, whether in private or in public, within due limits.”

Dignitatis humanae #2:
“Therefore this right to non-interference persists even in those who carry out thier obligationsof seeking the truth and standing by it; and the exercise of this practice shal not be curtailed, as long as due public order is preserved…”

This contridicts the syllabus of Errors which was spoken ex-cathedra. Even antipope Benedict XVI admits that it contridicts it. He calls it a counter-syllabus.

Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of errors, Dec. 8, 1864, #77

“In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever.” – CONDEMNED.
#78 “Hence in certain regions of Catholic name, it has been laudably sanctioned by law that men immigrating there be allowed to have public exercises of any form of worship of thier own.” – CONDEMNED.
#55 “The church is to be seperate from the state, an the state from the church.” – CONDEMNED.

There are several other examples that i can give you as long as they dont pull this thread. Let me leave you with one last thing before I close this entry. Rome has even changed the words of Christ himself.

At the Consencration over the Chalice: “This is the cup of my blood… Which will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven.”

The words Christ used as well as the entire history of the Church were, “For this is the chalice of my blood… which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remision of sins.”

This may not seem significant to you, but according to 2 Popes, if you make the change to these very words as has been done, you will not have a valid sacrement…

Any more questions?
Actually a heretic, even one who is excommunicated latae setentiae, can be a valid Pope, as indicated in Canon Law. This article sheds a little more light on the subject.

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea1.asp
 
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leopard:
That’s fine, but how do you excuse those popes (or their predecessors) changing the words of consecration from Christ’s words? I don’t mean they changed the meaning of those words, they didn’t, just the words spoken themselves. If it was within these earlier popes’ authority to do this, why should there be a problem with more recent popes exercising this same authority?
The Church has been around for 2000 yrs- Have we said the Mass the same way all that time? Is the Mass the Apostles said the same as today-? No of course not! Did in change in form and structure -yes! did it change in meaning- no! Did the real Presence Change ?No! Christ said he would not desert the church.
-either you believe that or you don’t You can dance a fast as you can but you can’t get pass that fact.:mad:
I presume your response is intended for the OP, not for me, as:
  1. We seem to be making essentially the same point, and
  2. I am not dancing.
 
That’s okay. But seeing as we’re both here and moving in the same direction in this discussion, as it were, may I have the honor of this dance? 😉
 
Excuse my vagueness, I was specific with my last posting and it got thrown off.

I mean, has the Church of Rome fallen? As has many chuches within the Catholic Church have done in history.

I’ll go slow with this subject this time. Ask questions.
O.k, think of this. This is not mearly an idea but is a reality with hard facts supporting it. This also dose not contridict Church history or its teachings.

In history, during the Arian Heresy, 99% of every bishop in the world held that Christ was not devine and as we know it now, this was not the great revolt prophesied at the end just before the second coming. I want to give you some Catholic teachings on this so that you can see that this is not novel nor contradicted in history.

Cardinal Manning, in 1861, theologian of Rome, stated, “The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts so new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who wrights expresly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatize from the faith, drive away the vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. …Then the church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the begining, invisible hidden in the catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such as the universal testimony of the fathers of the early Church.”

St. Nicholas of Flue (1417-1487): " The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The church will sink deaper and deaper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles to have expired. But, after this she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters" (Catholic Prophecy by Yves Dupont, p. 30)

“Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist…the Church will be in eclipse.” (Words spoken by Our Lady of La Salette to Melanie Calvat in 1846 A.D., a fully approved Church Apparition)

Thi is just three examples and I could give several more…
**KBrooks:
You say that by “Rome”, you mean the
Church. Your questions is: has the Church fallen?
But your quotes seem to allege, not that the Church has fallen or will fall, but that the (secular) city of Rome will reject and persecute the Church. Surely then, even if we accept the quotes, you have not shown us any reason to think Mother Church will fail.
Secondly, you have not included any source. No links, no place for us to look, to check your sources.
Thirdly, What of the words of Christ in the Gospel? (Matthew 16:18, spoken to Peter)
“You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
**
O.k, first let me ask a favor, if you are not going to take the subject seriously, dont even bother answering. Childish remarks wont be taken seriously. Secondly, the breakage began with the election of a Mason/heretic Roncalli who was John XXIII. Scince he was not Catholic, he cannot be a true Pope. The final breakage came with the finalization of Vatican 2, (under the Mason/heretic Paul VI) which actually teaches heresy.
**Please cite your evidence for calling Roncalli/John XXIII a Mason or a heretic, and for the allegation that he was not a Catholic – and please provide links to your source material.
I make the same request for your allegation against Paul VI. **
 
Childish remarks wont be taken seriously.
Which is precisely why people were not taking your post seriously.
Secondly, the breakage began with the election of a Mason/heretic Roncalli who was John XXIII. Scince he was not Catholic, he cannot be a true Pope. The final breakage came with the finalization of Vatican 2, (under the Mason/heretic Paul VI) which actually teaches heresy.
Which is easier to believe, (a) practically the entire episcopate of the Church suddenly became heretical while only you and a handful of others can see the real conspiracy, or (b) Jesus when He said “I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. I’ll stick with Jesus and His Church, thank you very much.
Maybe doctrine will help you understand. Hear are a couple of instances from Vatican 2 against the historical doctrine of the Catholic Church:
Really, please provide links to authoritative sites for these “quotes.” They contain so many spelling and grammar errors as to suggest that they are wholly unreliable quotes.

Also, your conclusions are not borne out by your “proof texts.”

For example, your supporting quote:“For one can be in the Church of Christ without being in unity with its visable [sic] head and founded on the See of Peter.”
actually supports the LG statement and contradicts your thesis.
 
Too bad the monitors or overseers didn’t yank this thread too. What a waste of key strokes! I thought yesterday that it was legitimate and might be going somewhere. Oh, well. 🤷
 
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