Hauntings: Ghosts vs Demons?

[TheHolyGhost]

My friend who is non Christian began speaking of ghosts and hauntings, which I disagreed and explained were probably diabolic infestations and not ghosts that people mistake that for, if even anything supernatural is occuring in the first place.

So he asks what a demon is? I said a malicious spirit.

He said so if a malicious spirit just moves things or turns my tv on and off, whar is it accomplishing if its not scary to him?

I said there are different levels of activity, they may progress into more dangerous interactions.

So then he asks how you can be sure its a demon as opposed to a ghost?

My only explabation is that when “ghost hunters” try to rid a presence, it doesnt work. When a qualified priest executes a rite of excorcism, it works.

Any other explanations that differentiate the two that a non Christian can understand?

 

[fred_conty]

Here is the answer:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=197048

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Thanks fred, that was pretty good. Except my friend is non Christian and probably would not understand the purgatorial spirit explanation. But i guess that might be a good chance to get to explain what purgatory is.

 

[BluesPicker]

My friend who is non Christian began speaking of ghosts and hauntings, which I disagreed and explained were probably diabolic infestations and not ghosts that people mistake that for, if even anything supernatural is occuring in the first place.

So he asks what a demon is? I said a malicious spirit.

He said so if a malicious spirit just moves things or turns my tv on and off, whar is it accomplishing if its not scary to him?

I said there are different levels of activity, they may progress into more dangerous interactions.

So then he asks how you can be sure its a demon as opposed to a ghost?

My only explabation is that when “ghost hunters” try to rid a presence, it doesnt work. When a qualified priest executes a rite of excorcism, it works.

Any other explanations that differentiate the two that a non Christian can understand?

  Note:  Fred's link was simply great. I had been working and didn't see until I had posted. 


Yipes!  No doubt your friend most probably has been  watching the "Paranormal" or "Ghost Hunting"  or  "Haunting"  TV shows or movies that present literally: A How to Commit  Grave Mortal Sins."   These shows teach spiritism not Christian sprituality. Unless parents are vigilant their children in this Age of  Mass Media may well fall prey to these shows and develop an unhealthy interest in spiritism

  Sorry for the rant, but every exorcist priest I know of are working nearly 7 days a week.  Although there is an increase in possessions exorcists have a lot of cases of people suffering from oppression and other forms of demonic influence.  The remedy for these are prayers of deliverance or liberation.  One of the chief reasons why people have a hard time getting help is because these priests have already a full time job in their pastoral service to the people God has entrusted to them.

  From  Fr. Fortea's website:

Holy Souls from Purgatory aka: Ghosts

Ghosts are apparitions of people who are in Purgatory. These apparitions have characteristics which are always the same and very different from infestations:

-the soul appears in human form.
-it does not say anything.
-it appears in a menacing and terrifying manner.

It never moves objects nor makes any noise. When it appears it just stares, in a very unfriendly way, and then just disappears. We know it is not the devil, because the phenomenon does not do anything more. It disappears if masses and prayers are said for its soul. These apparitions are ways of calling our attention so that prayers be said for it.

 There seem to be other forms of ghostly apparitions of humans that may appear; but it is it is just an image of someone who died going through the motions of daily life.  These do not appear to be conscious of our presence plus they make no sounds.

 An expert Catholic priest who is renown for his investigations into demonic infestations said that sometimes God allows a Holy Soul in Purgatory to come to earth on a mission directly related to their entering Heaven.  Once this mission is completed, whatever it may be, they enter Heaven.  In this case,  God may allow them to interact with humans in any manner to complete their mission.  But this is very, very rare, hardly not worth mentioning.

 Far more common are demonic apparitions. For example at Lourdes there were over 50 people claiming that they were experiencing or had experienced apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary the Immaculate Conception.  Yet out of these many people only  St. Bernadette Soubirous actually truly saw, heard, and spoke to the Immaculate Conception.


   For those who like me are seriously interested  I have attached  Spiritual Theology by  Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP in a "txt"  or text file.  I obtained this in an archive for free online so no copyright infringements have been made.   Fr. Aumann and his book are described as:

In Spiritual Theology Father Jordan Aumann dispels the common misconception that ascetical and mystical theology is for the select few. He reminds us that “the real purpose of the study of the spiritual life is not to produce scholars but to form holy Christians.”

Basing much of his work on St. Thomas Aquinas, St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa, Father Aumann proves that Christian perfection consists especially in charity, a charity richly rewarded in spiritual graces.

He presents the most complete and systematic treatment of spiritual theology since Vatican II. Comprehensive in scope, it meets the needs of seminarians, professors of spiritual theology, spiritual directors, and retreat masters. This classic will also appeal to the educated reader seeking a richer and fuller spiritual life.
JORDAN AUMANN, O.P. is a native of the United States and Director of the Institute of Spirituality at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome. He is also a Consultor for the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy and Catechetics and likewise a Consultor for the Sacred Congregation for Evangelization. Since 1977 he has been giving special courses in spirituality at the Faculty of Theology of the University of Santo Tomas, Manila, where he is an honorary professor. He has likewise travelled extensively throughout the Philippines to give retreats to the clergy, and retreats and special series of lectures to religious and seminarians. Father Aumann has also written the book History of Spirituality published in the Philippines by St. Paul Publications.

Nihil Obstat:
Rev. John Kuzmich
Censor Librorum

Imprimatur:

• William E. McManus Bishop of Fort Wayne-South Bend
  October 17, 1979

 

[TheHolyGhost]

So the difference is that demons speak and move objects and ghosts just appear and disappear?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

What about the Long Island Medium lady? The things now on TV?!?!?!

 

[BluesPicker]

So the difference is that demons speak and move objects and ghosts just appear and disappear?

 According to Fr. Fortea's view and his study, Yes.  You can go to his website by using the link I provided, hopefully.   A Holy Soul from Purgatory is not going to sin.  Communicating with spirits, other than God or some Saint in Heaven, is a grave matter, a mortal sin.  A  Holy Soul on a mission related to enter Heaven that God has allowed to manifest  in a manner that the living can see or detect in some manner is not going to sin.

They may knock over a coffee cup or a glass; but there will be no malicious, harmful behavior.

  The link that Fred Conty provided is a post made by Peggy Frye a CAF apologists addresses the matter in more detail than my post.   

  This really makes me uneasy and apprehensive because terrible things have happened to people who for example go to mediums for Tarot card readings.

What about the Long Island Medium lady? The things now on TV?!?!?!

   Divination is a mortal sin.  Necromancy is a mortal sin.  Check what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says.   What you think because it is on TV that this mitigates in some form or other that mediums and the people who go to them or listen to them are committing mortal sin?  

   These types of shows are being shown throughout the world.  The devil is being piped into your home via the TV.  This is just one facet of the Great Apostasy. Satan has tentacles all over in many forms to get people to Hell.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

   Divination is a mortal sin.  Necromancy is a mortal sin.  Check what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says.   What you think because it is on TV that this mitigates in some form or other that mediums and the people who go to them or listen to them are committing mortal sin?  

   These types of shows are being shown throughout the world.  The devil is being piped into your home via the TV.  This is just one facet of the Great Apostasy. Satan has tentacles all over in many forms to get people to Hell.

They say they cannot help it. The voices are just there. I think they are scams. A little research and some good editing and you have a show.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Blues, what kinds of terrible things have happened to people who use Tarot cards etc?

 

[BluesPicker]

A young mother of 2 went with 2 of her friends to get a Tarot card reading. This woman was a Catholic and is related to one of our Holy Fathers i.e. the Pope who is in the process of being canonized, She comes from a very prestigious and religious family. She brought her young son who was still used a baby seat and her daughter also. The medium said that she detected evil around her and would remove it for another $50.00. She was sort of roped into going to the medium who used Tarot cards by her friends. She was a very attractive young woman and married a doctor. Life was good. Wisely she didn’t give more money to the medium.

   Three days latter she was driving her SUV with her daughter buckled in riding shotgun or next to her.  Her son was buckled safely in his baby seat in the back seat. They were on an interstate highway in a large southern city.  There was a large ditch with a cement barrier between the opposing  multiple lanes of travel.  The day was bright and sunny, good weather.   There was a man with a hooker traveling opposite to their lane of travel getting oral sex.  This was determined by the police.  This man's car went off the road went through both ditches busting through the cement barrier hitting her car about 45 degrees on the left corner of her car.  The baby seat failed and her son still in the seat was ejected flying through the windshield then into the air for about 250 feet. He landed into a pile of loose dirt piled up.  She crawled unable to walk and found her son suffocating head first & downward in the loose soil.

The boy suffered permanent brain damage. His sister was OK & not hurt, miraculously. The boy lost the ability to be able to control and move his body to even speak. He uses his eyes now to communicate with a special apparatus.

His father was agnostic but he saw a black person-like shadow over the boy in bed. There was other factors from the father’s side of the family but the Tarot card reading opened the door. The family now is a Church going family as husband converted to Roman Catholicism.

That is how I understand it.  I don't have the imagination nor the inclination to make up a story like that.  It is hard

  When I attempt to communicate what  I have learned, for instance Pope Leo XIII's Prayer......repeating verbatim the instructions I was given, citing references.  But now there are many Catholic Rosary Groups whose members are  praying just as the Holy Father, Pope Leo XIII instructed.   I imagine there are priests who went to Rome to study how to celebrate exorcisms and the theology  & doctrines of the Church in that regard. They then in turn instruct other priests and laity in their dioceses.  Priests have been getting a lot bad press, mostly in the past, for the sins of a few; but priests are the ones whose efforts get us to Heaven.  In big cities in certain places here & in Canada  they suffer persecution for Christ's sake.

Peace In Christ,

BP

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

Hope this helps you with answering your friend. I have placed some sentences in bold as this may be more understandable from a non-christian point of view.

My friend who is non Christian began speaking of ghosts and hauntings, which I disagreed and explained were probably diabolic infestations and not ghosts that people mistake that for, if even anything supernatural is occuring in the first place.

There has been many programs aired over the last couple of years that have brought ghost and hauntings into the spotlight of those who may have never have given such a second thought. To those who have never experienced such and are not of sound spiritual grounding it tends to draw a person to become curious and sometimes obsessive. Most are unaware of the spiritual dangers that can curtail and ultimately destroy a family unit or person’s life.

If your friend has developed an interest because of these program’s then ask him:
Do think it is ethical to provoke spirits into performing for you on TV ?
Is it for personal gain and fame that these show are broadcasted ?

There are a number of unwitting people who have been involved in ghost hunting only to find themselves under significant spiritual attack within their homes. Zak is convinced that Beelzebub is after him, this is most likely true.

So he asks what a demon is? I said a malicious spirit.

A demon is a fallen Angel that rebelled against God along with Satan, refusing to be humble before, and serve, God. Their primary sin is pride.

A demon is an immortal supernatural entity has a hatred against human beings. Demons are merciless. Their only goal for humans is to deceive and corrupt them into turning away from the good in this world. A demon will attempt to corrupt the soul so that it is eternal slave and victim.

Demons are deceivers by their very nature (they can appear as a deceased family member, a helpful or needy spirit, a friend, an imaginary friend to a child, a guide, a mimicer of another family member to cause fights.). The best of all deception is to convince you that there is no such thing as fallen angels.The enemy almost never appears in their true form, they lie and deceive constantly. They wish you to doubt this because believing in fallen angels leads to thoughts about angels and God, which they don’t want you to believe in.

He said so if a malicious spirit just moves things or turns my tv on and off, whar is it accomplishing if its not scary to him?

**Small things like electrical disturbances and movement of objects are an attempt to gain a psychological foothold in the person’s life. They will press for more and more communication and interaction. As time goes on they become more demanding and ultimately controlling and threatening. If a demon can move small objects then it can move big objects too. **

So then he asks how you can be sure its a demon as opposed to a ghost?

We can’t presume to know all the aspects of the spiritual world, it may be a demon or it may be a human spirit requesting prayer. We know that a human spirit from purgatory** can ask humans for prayer or Holy Mass. Once prayer **or Holy Mass **has been done then asking that the human spirit be sent to away from the house to a neutral place as to not violate their free will but to also keep the home peaceful. Human spirits are pretty easy to deal with. A demon may escalate to the next level. **

So the difference is that demons speak and move objects and ghosts just appear and disappear?

Human spirit can be seen by humans and can talk as well. Maria Simma had frequent visits and long conversation from human spirits from different levels of purgatory requesting prayer and Holy Mass. Please note that Maria never called on human spirit, they came to her - there were times when she thought they where living humans only to find out later that they weren’t. The late Maria Simma was an Austrian visionary and devote Catholic.

Demons also love to interact, very often verbally. So it’s always best to be cautious and not casually trust any spirit, remember to “test the spirits”.

God Bless
THT

 

[3DOCTORS]

I recently read this book, Hungry Souls, and it explains a lot about the Souls in Purgatory. The author rightly points out that it’s unfortunate in our present day how few take seriously the need to pray for these suffering souls.

tanbooks.benedictpress.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/787/keywords/hungry+souls/

 

[BluesPicker]

Yes we do need to pray for them. I want to warn people about two thing. Maria Simmons tried as a young woman to enter convents several times but she was rejected for health reasons. When the Holy Souls appeared to her first, she went to her parish priest and he referred her to their Bishop. She had Church approval from her parish priest who was her spiritual director because their Bishop gave his approval. In other words, she had permission and she could discern well enough for her Bishop to allow her to do what she did for the Holy Souls from Purgatory.

  It is a mortal sin to communicate with spirits other than Heaven.  Many people have been hurt because they did this very thing.  Once someone has openned themselves by sin to be attacked by the enemy of God, generally it is a fight the rest of their lives.

Pax Christi,
BP

 

[SinnersAnonymus]

These are wise warnings. Hopefully they are listened to.

Myself, I have worked with people who dabbled in the occult and New Age and the results are scary. Each case is different, but it can be a process people do not notice until to late. Like slowly boiling a frog alive, the frog will just sit there and die. The demonic are experts at hiding inside a persons mind and mimic a person’s own thoughts and feelings. Once attracted, it can be a lifelong struggle as they try to take what they view as their property (i.e. the person’s soul, mind and even body).

I have met several people who could see either “Shadow people” and/or “ghost” like people. The “Shadow People” were generally demons and the “ghosts” were usually a mix of lost souls and demons. The best advise I my director gave me for these people was “do not worry about figuring out which is which, toss some holy water at it and pray a rosary for it. Either way problem solved”.

By trying to play ghost hunter, one risks attracting these things to their life. If person has a poor or nonexistent prayer life it is like putting up no fight to them meddling with the person’s mind and life. Ignorance does not protect one from their attacks. I have seen very young children tormented by demonic voices and “shadows” because of their mistakes (like messing with ouiji boards) or because their parents messed with New Age. Remember these are sentient beings which do not torment everyone the same. Some people are ignored (since they are aimless and lost in the forest of life) and some are not. Generally they will focus on those either those seeking God, those who can be tormented into suicide, and those who are unable to defend themselves (like children). This is why baptism and teaching your children daily prayers is a wise idea.

A general example based on what I have seen. A father (he is aimless so he simply keeps busy with hobbies and is left alone) may never understand why one of his children (the one tormented with voices and images) is so weird and simply ignores that child while the mother is constantly too tired and irritable to raise their child (she is the “religious” one of the family seeking God in New Age so she is also tormented). Out of the remaining children: the other child is tormented with a serious image disorder and suicidal thoughts while the other follows in their fathers footsteps and is aimless so they are (mostly) ignored. Many living in this situation just shrug their shoulders and accepts society’s dysfunctional state similar to theirs as normal. I have seen situations like this do a 180 with prayer, confession and regular mass attendance but it is a difficult road.

Anyway, this is a risky topic to dwell on. The diabolical is like sentient radioactive waste with heat seeking properties. Their greatest weapon is remaining hidden and prolonged discussion (or thinking) about them can draw their attention. Instead focus on something holy, like how much God loves us and we will be protected if we ask.

Deborah Lipskey wrote a good book (with the help of a priest) on the dangers they present, knowing what to watch out for, and how to protect yourself.
*A Message of Hope, Confessions of an Ex-Satanist *taupublishing.com/giftShopProducts.aspx?cat=129

I heard about the book on Catholic radio and my spiritual advisor recommended it to me.

God Bless

 

[TheHolyGhost]

While I agree its probably best not to dwell or talk so much about this, my non religious friend has an interest in ghosts and brought this up. While he generally isnt willing to listen to what I or other people.have to say about God, it seems like he was more interested or at least tolerant when on this subject. I thought maybe this is a good chance to talk or lead into other discussions possibly.

 

[SinnersAnonymus]

It is a good sentiment, however for a nonbeliever it is complicated. Remember that the diabolical wish to remain hidden and can influence both thoughts and feelings. By having a discussion about revealing them to someone who does not understand, care to guard their thoughts, or protect themselves though God is risky. If they are open to God this may be used to bring them closer. However, if they are not open to God at all, they are just as likely to turn on you (I have had this happen to me). Or they may just dismiss what you are saying and that is it.

Seek the advice of a good spiritual director. I have found mine to be very accurate in advising me in such difficult situations.

God Bless

 

[BluesPicker]

These are wise warnings. Hopefully they are listened to.

Myself, I have worked with people who dabbled in the occult and New Age and the results are scary. Each case is different, but it can be a process people do not notice until to late. Like slowly boiling a frog alive, the frog will just sit there and die. The demonic are experts at hiding inside a persons mind and mimic a person’s own thoughts and feelings. Once attracted, it can be a lifelong struggle as they try to take what they view as their property (i.e. the person’s soul, mind and even body).

I have met several people who could see either “Shadow people” and/or “ghost” like people. The “Shadow People” were generally demons and the “ghosts” were usually a mix of lost souls and demons. The best advise I my director gave me for these people was “do not worry about figuring out which is which, toss some holy water at it and pray a rosary for it. Either way problem solved”.

By trying to play ghost hunter, one risks attracting these things to their life. If person has a poor or nonexistent prayer life it is like putting up no fight to them meddling with the person’s mind and life. Ignorance does not protect one from their attacks. I have seen very young children tormented by demonic voices and “shadows” because of their mistakes (like messing with ouiji boards) or because their parents messed with New Age. Remember these are sentient beings which do not torment everyone the same. Some people are ignored (since they are aimless and lost in the forest of life) and some are not. Generally they will focus on those either those seeking God, those who can be tormented into suicide, and those who are unable to defend themselves (like children). This is why baptism and teaching your children daily prayers is a wise idea.

A general example based on what I have seen. A father (he is aimless so he simply keeps busy with hobbies and is left alone) may never understand why one of his children (the one tormented with voices and images) is so weird and simply ignores that child while the mother is constantly too tired and irritable to raise their child (she is the “religious” one of the family seeking God in New Age so she is also tormented). Out of the remaining children: the other child is tormented with a serious image disorder and suicidal thoughts while the other follows in their fathers footsteps and is aimless so they are (mostly) ignored. Many living in this situation just shrug their shoulders and accepts society’s dysfunctional state similar to theirs as normal. I have seen situations like this do a 180 with prayer, confession and regular mass attendance but it is a difficult road.

Anyway, this is a risky topic to dwell on. The diabolical is like sentient radioactive waste with heat seeking properties. Their greatest weapon is remaining hidden and prolonged discussion (or thinking) about them can draw their attention. Instead focus on something holy, like how much God loves us and we will be protected if we ask.

Deborah Lipskey wrote a good book (with the help of a priest) on the dangers they present, knowing what to watch out for, and how to protect yourself.
*A Message of Hope, Confessions of an Ex-Satanist *taupublishing.com/giftShopProducts.aspx?cat=129

I heard about the book on Catholic radio and my spiritual advisor recommended it to me.

God Bless

Thanks for the information.  I am so used to counseling people that I forget most people, and this is a Good thing, have never been exposed to demonic attacks. You, being in the mental health profession and a believer in the Fullness of the Gospels, are a rarity.   Your spiritual director is as St. Paul would say is a Saintly person.  Also you instruct people in how the Church responds and teaches how to respond to this type of problem..

QUOTE=TheHolyGhost;11404561]While I agree its probably best not to dwell or talk so much about this, my non religious friend has an interest in ghosts and brought this up. While he generally isnt willing to listen to what I or other people.have to say about God, it seems like he was more interested or at least tolerant when on this subject. I thought maybe this is a good chance to talk or lead into other discussions possibly.

I understand your point; but the Truth will set you free, according to an old adage. Any name or situation that appears in the Bible should be discussed. SA’s, the anonymous one, posts on and related to this topic provides important actual data; and, he also tells us how people combat this. Cults are very dangerous especially ones dealing with the occult.

 Defectors from these secretive occult cults that rope people in and essentially destroy people mentally, spiritually, and physically.  They bear the mark of Satan, a murder and a liar from the beginning.

  There are people who have websites that are highly critical of  priests and some are even canon lawyers.  These people either are ignorant, I'm being charitable here, of the Churches practices or they have a great problem.  Also there are people who have big websites; but they have lack understanding much as the Pharisees who Christ warned and spoke against.   One so-called Catholic deliverance group has never as of 2007 gotten one candidate accepted for exorcism.  I will give you a hint.  If someone defames their Bishop publicly,  they are enemies of God; and, one should run not walk away from them.

Pax Christi,
BP