Have Traditionalists forgotten the value of suffering?

[maurin]

As a faithful son of the Church who is overwhelmingly happy that Peter has given me the choice to ONLY attend the Traditional Latin Mass (nevermind that it is far away–I have a car, gas money, and the will!). And I am quite sympathetic to my brothers and sisters who CANNOT find a TLM in their area (however, I really do believe that where there’s a will there IS a way).

Something that is striking me hard between the eyes, though, are these threads that contain either posters complaining outright, or newspaper articles of “faithful parishioners” who are complaining outright, or arguing with their Priests, arguing with their Bishops, and still identifying themselves as the “faithful.”

**Worse case scenario: ** They have unfaithful Priests and Bishops. It would cost way too much to drive hours away to find a TLM. They are forced by economic and real circumstances to attend only Parishes that abuses the Liturgy, run by Priests who are actively persecuting Traditionalists.

Is there a benefit to suffering? If circumstances really have prevented someone from finding a Parish situation that suits them, maybe this suffering is what God wants of them?

Ecclesisaticus (Sirach) 2:1-6: *Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear: and prepare thy soul for temptation.

Humble thy heart, and endure: incline thy ear, and receive the words of understanding: and make not haste in the time of clouds.

Wait on God with patience: join thyself to God and endure, that thy life may be increased in the latter end.

Take all that shall be brought upon thee: and in thy sorrow endure, and in thy humiliation keep Patience.

For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Believe God, and he will recover thee and direct thy way: and trust in Him. Keep his fear, and grow old therein.*

 

[gorman64]

Worse case scenario: They have unfaithful Priests and Bishops. It would cost way too much to drive hours away to find a TLM. They are forced by economic and real circumstances to attend only Parishes that abuses the Liturgy, run by Priests who are actively persecuting Traditionalists.

Is there a benefit to suffering? If circumstances really have prevented someone from finding a Parish situation that suits them, maybe this suffering is what God wants of them?

Is there a benefit to suffering? Of course there is…but prudence also dictates that we flee anything that is a danger to our souls or to our faith. We are not to place ourselves in these positions of suffering…that would be imprudent.

 

[maurin]

Is there a benefit to suffering? Of course there is…but prudence also dictates that we flee anything that is a danger to our souls or to our faith. We are not to place ourselves in these positions of suffering…that would be imprudent.

True…true. But then one runs head on into the danger of setting themselves up as Magisterium and Holy Father when denying the validity of one of the two approved Rites.

Not to mention ignoring Jesus’ teaching against ‘murmuring.’

We have a choice now, do we not?

 

[CatholicMC]

Is there a benefit to suffering? Of course there is…but prudence also dictates that we flee anything that is a danger to our souls or to our faith. We are not to place ourselves in these positions of suffering…that would be imprudent.

How will a cultural change take place if there is nobody left to question liturgical and theological abuses against the Church’s teachings? I don’t feel that retreating away is the answer, rather becoming educated about Church teachings and being active in ways that can bring about change.

 

[Uxor]

True…true. But then one runs head on into the danger of setting themselves up as Magisterium and Holy Father when denying the validity of one of the two approved Rites.

Not to mention ignoring Jesus’ teaching against ‘murmuring.’

We have a choice now, do we not?

You don’t sound like a traditionalist your statement is the same argument orthordox catholics here make and then lump in all traditionalists as not obedient to Rome or the Holy Father.

[Edited by Moderator]

 

[dessert]

How will a cultural change take place if there is nobody left to question liturgical and theological abuses against the Church’s teachings? I don’t feel that retreating away is the answer, rather becoming educated about Church teachings and being active in ways that can bring about change.

What are some of the ways to become active?

How do you find out about Church teachings?
Dessert

 

[maurin]

You don’t sound like a traditionalist your statement is the same argument orthordox catholics here make and then lump in all traditionalists as not obedient to Rome or the Holy Father.

[Edited by Moderator]

[Edited by Moderator]

In the privacy of my thoughts, I have not much good to say about how the Mass is celebrated at most of the NO Parishes I have been to in the past few years (since 03, my job has moved me to three different states). I have had the good fortune, though, of having found one NO Parish and Priest who was absolutely reverent and offered the opportunity to all who wished to study more.

I have found my home in this state in a Traditional Parish. My fellow Parishioners are a mix of self-proclaimed victims who are constantly decrying and deriding the evils of today’s Church and those who are just so relieved they have a choice. I obviously consider myself a member of the latter group.

I am a Traditionalist. There are things that occurr that I don’t understand in the Church at large, but I am not going to condemn what I don’t understand, as some here feel so comfortable doing. I make a god of my intellect when I do that, I think. I also think that if I did not have the choice to attend the TLM, then maybe my emotions would get the best of me, and I would be almost as vocal in my distaste as others here are.

But my point is that we have been given a choice, and the sands are shifting, slowly maybe, but shifting nonetheless. Is it necessary to murmur?

 

[gorman64]

True…true. But then one runs head on into the danger of setting themselves up as Magisterium and Holy Father when denying the validity of one of the two approved Rites.

Not to mention ignoring Jesus’ teaching against ‘murmuring.’

We have a choice now, do we not?

Dear Maurin,

No, not a choice that endangers our souls. The salvation of souls is the supreme rule…not some legalistic position that basically says by hook or by crook the NO Mass is valid and therefore good…no matter what goes on in these places. This has nothing to do with “murmuring” either. If there is real concern, then there is more danger in stayiny there than in “setting (oneself) up as Magisterium and Holy Father when denying the validity of one of the two approved Rites.”

Btw, why would anyone doubt the validity of the Traditional Rite? I would hope that would be a given for any Catholic.

Yours,

Gorman

 

[BobP123]

True…true. But then one runs head on into the danger of setting themselves up as Magisterium and Holy Father when denying the validity of one of the two approved Rites.

Maybe the soon-to-be-I-hope moto proprio will relax the requirement that all trads must scream “The NO is VALID” every two seconds on these message boards.

I will accept the Latin (and Polish) NO as valid, even if the Novus Ordo is in clear violation of Trent, but if I never have to hear the “for you and for all” bogus theology again, it will be too soon.

After all, ALL are not called and ALL are not chosen.

 

[Unfinished]

Maybe the soon-to-be-I-hope moto proprio will relax the requirement that all trads must scream “The NO is VALID” every two seconds on these message boards.

Geez. I know.

The agenda seems to go both ways, does it not?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Geez. I know.

The agenda seems to go both ways, does it not?

Oh, PLEASE! You’re complaining because the least a “traditional” Catholic has to do is affirm the validity of the NO MASS? That’s the least that you DO do, as you hold your noses when having to talk to the rest of us. “the agenda.” HA!

And Bob, the Holy See has ruled that “for all” did NOT invalidate the Masses that used it (English), so really you should take your little issue up with THEM.

 

[Unfinished]

Oh, PLEASE! You’re complaining because the least a “traditional” Catholic has to do is affirm the validity of the NO MASS? That’s the least that you DO do, as you hold your noses when having to talk to the rest of us. “the agenda.” HA!

And Bob, the Holy See has ruled that “for all” did NOT invalidate the Masses that used it (English), so really you should take your little issue up with THEM.

JKirk, I think the attitude you are taking right now is half the problem. It goes both ways. The traditional side is not the only one at fault.

I mean honestly, I am going to a Novus Ordo seminary next year. The Bishop is well aware my preferences lie elsewhere. But it is about do what I think God needs me to do.

My point being, let the traditional Catholics slap around the other traditional Catholics. My priest does it all the time. Sometimes they get too big for their britches. But when others come in attacking them for their stance on things, it only escalates.

The Mass is our baby, and sometimes some people use it as the end instead of seeing Christ as the end. Perhaps you don’t understand what a big leap it is for some people raised as Sedevacantists or close to it to accept the Novus Ordo. I have seen it happen, and it is harder than convincing a hard lined Fundamentalist to become Catholic. So yes, when a traditional Catholic accepts the Novus Ordo I smile inside. Because they are on the right path.

As far as the “agenda,” I have to be very careful who I tell when speaking about what parish I attend. There is a huge agenda to destory the traditional Mass, at least in my diocese. I have heard it called some nasty names by many people, including priests. So forgive me if I grow impatient sometimes on these message boards. Sometimes, by the time I have gotten here I have probably gone through a gauntlet of people having to defend the faith one way or the next. Traditionalism included.

As far as I am concerned, if I am doing any nose holding towards you, it is because I am tired of your constant barrage of whitty, cleverly disguised condescending remarks. Perhaps that is just the kind of rhetoric you are speaking about, but I am after all human, and I get fed up sometimes too. So forgive me.

Now, back to getting along.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed.