Having even our basic efforts to love rejected by those who hate our beliefs hurts

[3DOCTORS]

Saw a headline in passing the other day that some atheist group is suing to have the Ground Zero cross removed from a memorial museum about 9/11. And wow, did this get me thinking.

A link, if you’re curious: wnd.com/2012/08/atheists-claim-ground-zero-cross-sickens-them/

Not only about how these lawsuits are becoming so ridiculous and clogging the courts and the only ones really benefiting in the end are the lawyers, but how flimsy the reasoning behind them is. The presence of the Ground Zero cross in the museum “hurts” the atheist, or so the lawsuit claims.

So, following that logic, we should also remove Stars of David from a Holocaust memorial, and so on, ad infinitum, because wouldn’t those “hurt” atheists as well?

And then my reflections went more into my own experiences of late with certain friends and family who reject Christianity or Catholicism, and how it’s getting to be that more and more they don’t even want any help from a Christian/Catholic.*

(*Note: I realize Catholics are Christians! When I say Christian, probably the ones affected most are morally conservative Christian denominations; liberal, “politically correct” Christians may not be experiencing as much of this rejection since they are more “tolerant” and not “judgmental” etc.)

Let me try to clarify what I mean by that. For one thing, look at the HHS mandate. Just because a Catholic institution wants to follow Church teaching and not provide contraception and sterilization, now we could be hindered doing good works such as feeding the hungry and other basic human needs.

My friends who are angry at Christians or Catholics seem to have put up a barrier where I can’t even express love or concern for them in the same way I used to be able to a few years ago. It’s like poison has been dumped in the waters and everyone’s being affected by it. Sometimes I wonder if they were starving would they even let a Christian or Catholic offer them something to eat and drink?

These thoughts are hard to put into words, so I hope I have been able to articulate them in a way that’s understandable. I’m intuitive sometimes rather than specific and what I’m attempting to describe here is a “vibe” I’m picking up on and wondering if others have felt it, too, and if so, any ideas on how to approach it? Prayer is the obvious place to start, both praying for the hardened hearts and asking for guidance how to approach them.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

My friends who are angry at Christians or Catholics seem to have put up a barrier where I can’t even express love or concern for them in the same way I used to be able to a few years ago. It’s like poison has been dumped in the waters and everyone’s being affected by it. Sometimes I wonder if they were starving would they even let a Christian or Catholic offer them something to eat and drink?

This is very sad but it is their choice to behave like that. The poison has indeed been dumped in the waters. The only thing we can do is stay faithful, pray for those who hate God and help them in the time of need if they are willing to accept our help. I also feel helpless often and have to remind myself that the world hates Christ and that what our times bring is really nothing new.

 

[fred_conty]

I recently felt this in the hospital of a sick person I visited. This is tough. Here is an idea that may help put things in the right perspective.

A reworked version of “The Paradoxical Commandments” written by Dr. Kent M. Keith is written on the wall in Mother Teresa’s home for children in Calcutta.
This version is credited to Mother Teresa:

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.

What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.

Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.

In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.

 

[Vico]

…

I took a look at that link. If the athiests succeed in getting a ’17-foot-high A for Atheists’ erected, then may we get a permit for a 17 foot high Omega nearby?

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/i...LCm0byjQVFdCR3BAKkLtIxHBZvm9ZjpK0K7VQnZkIDbFw

 

[Sjonesd3]

For people who believe in no god they are working overtime to remove HIM from the US.

 

[R_C]

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. …] But all these things they will do to you for my name’s sake: because they know not him who sent me. …] But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law: They hated me without cause.”

 

[Sjonesd3]

R_C:
What book and verse would that be?

 

[Vico]

What book and verse would that be?

John 15:18-25

and

Psalm 109:3 (108:3)
They have spoken against me with deceitful tongues; and they have compassed me about with words of hatred; and have fought against me without cause.

 

[Prague]

Next thing you know they will be offended by telephone poles and want them all taken down.

 

[PJM]

=3DOCTORS;9691662]Saw a headline in passing the other day that some atheist group is suing to have the Ground Zero cross removed from a memorial museum about 9/11. And wow, did this get me thinking.

A link, if you’re curious: wnd.com/2012/08/atheists-claim-ground-zero-cross-sickens-them/

Not only about how these lawsuits are becoming so ridiculous and clogging the courts and the only ones really benefiting in the end are the lawyers, but how flimsy the reasoning behind them is. The presence of the Ground Zero cross in the museum “hurts” the atheist, or so the lawsuit claims.

So, following that logic, we should also remove Stars of David from a Holocaust memorial, and so on, ad infinitum, because wouldn’t those “hurt” atheists as well?

And then my reflections went more into my own experiences of late with certain friends and family who reject Christianity or Catholicism, and how it’s getting to be that more and more they don’t even want any help from a Christian/Catholic.*

(*Note: I realize Catholics are Christians! When I say Christian, probably the ones affected most are morally conservative Christian denominations; liberal, “politically correct” Christians may not be experiencing as much of this rejection since they are more “tolerant” and not “judgmental” etc.)

My friends who are angry at Christians or Catholics seem to have put up a barrier where I can’t even express love or concern for them in the same way I used to be able to a few years ago. It’s like poison has been dumped in the waters and everyone’s being affected by it. Sometimes I wonder if they were starving would they even let a Christian or Catholic offer them something to eat and drink?

REMEMBER DEAR FREIND THAT FAITH AND WITH IT RIGHT AND FULL UNDERSTANDING ARE GIFTS FROM GOD ALONE.

KNOW OUR FAITH
LIVE OUR FAITH PUBLICALLY
SHARE IT WHEN GOD PRESENTS THE OPPORTUNITY:thumbsup:

SUFFERING

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Much wisdom can be found in these words

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

 

[3DOCTORS]

Thanks for the encouraging words. The last year or so I guess there are two levels we’re dealing with - societal persecutions and interpersonal rejections. The societal persecutions are rather frightening to me. I’ve been praying for courage a lot!

The interpersonal ones are also a subject for prayer and sometimes cause pain as well. :bighanky: However, sometimes there are encouraging moments that come unexpectedly. For instance, with friendships that I think must be dead because the person really hates what Catholics stand for, then out of the blue one of these persons will call me and I’ll think, Okay, God, apparently Your Grace is touching this situation more than I thought.

I like that “Anyway” prayer and I’ll try to remember to have recourse to it more often. (And pray that the “anyways” I do don’t get me thrown in jail or sued . . . ) As for the friendships, I try to go by what St. Francis said about preaching the Gospel always and using words when necessary. Maybe it’s working better than I can see with my limited vision.

 

[DarkLight]

As someone who was an atheist for a while, I have to chime in here. What I see going on very often is a fundamental misunderstanding between the two sides.

Most atheists I know think displays of religion should be private, in the legal sense. Not private as in not being able to express it in public, but private as in not supported by the government. Many I know feel that they are being persecuted by the government using symbols of Christianity. And unfortunately some of this isn’t imaginary. I remember one situation, upon saying that I wasn’t a Christian, being told to “go back to the country I came from, because this is a Christian nation.” I also remember saying someone else was an atheist and being instructed that I “shouldn’t spread nasty rumors like that.”

Put it this way: If you lived through a tragedy in a muslim nation, or if your family member died there, would you want them represented by a crescent moon? There is hatred out there, but I think sometimes there is also a lack of understanding of why different people make the cases they do. In the case of public religious symbols, it’s about not being represented by something you don’t believe in.

 

[R_C]

We should never attribute the actions of a few to the actions of the community or the Church or the government. People, especially leaders of people, make mistakes. Their mistakes do not condemn the whole community, just the people who made them. If we understood this basic principle, there would be a lot less hatred…

The Cross is a symbol, or rather, the symbol of an innocent being killed. The Ground Zero cross appears in context to be so powerful as a tribute to those innocent victims that anyone who knows a bit about what this Christian symbol means - regardless of what is his religion, or whether or not he believes in God - will understand what that symbol means: an innocent man was condemned to die by those who believed that it was the right thing to do.

How does that hurt someone who does not believe in God? It does not say “believe in God”, nor it attempts to convert people to Christianity. It does not even imply that all victims were Christian - we know well that it is not so! The cross is, and will always be, a universal symbol to represent such victims - much more than other religious symbols that may still be very meaningful, but not in this context.

My question to those who support this lawsuit, then, is: what in this symbol is so strongly telling you that God exists, so much that you feel it is forcing, imposing God on you, to the extent of “hurting” you?

 

[3DOCTORS]

As someone who was an atheist for a while, I have to chime in here. What I see going on very often is a fundamental misunderstanding between the two sides.

Most atheists I know think displays of religion should be private, in the legal sense. Not private as in not being able to express it in public, but private as in not supported by the government.

This would be pretty impractical, though – like should there not be crosses and Stars of David on, say, graves in Arlington National Cemetery in the US?

Many I know feel that they are being persecuted by the government using symbols of Christianity. And unfortunately some of this isn’t imaginary. I remember one situation, upon saying that I wasn’t a Christian, being told to “go back to the country I came from, because this is a Christian nation.” I also remember saying someone else was an atheist and being instructed that I “shouldn’t spread nasty rumors like that.”

If some people feel “persecuted” by the government, they may need to look up the definition of the word. On one online dictionary synonyms listed included: victimization, abuse, torture, torment, oppression, tyranny, mistreatment, ill-treatment, maltreatment. I would add deprivation of property or employment to the list.

In other words, in all likelihood it needs to be something more tangible than hurt feelings. I’m not saying that meaning to be insensitive, but just to suggest taking a second look at the matter. Many times, in a calm state of mind, we can choose our emotional reactions or at least modify them, rather than blaming others for them.

However, I’m willing to see the point in a way if the shoe were on my foot. I feel extremely saddened and dismayed, for example, at the Health and Human Services contraception mandate, and so I could say I feel hurt by it. So we could call this one a draw; I just wanted to point out some different possible interpretations.

If one person said a mean thing to you about your not being a Christian, even though they added the phrase about “this is a Christian nation,” it was still that one person in that instance, not the government. And they shouldn’t have been snotty; that was uncharitable.

Put it this way: If you lived through a tragedy in a muslim nation, or if your family member died there, would you want them represented by a crescent moon? There is hatred out there, but I think sometimes there is also a lack of understanding of why different people make the cases they do. In the case of public religious symbols, it’s about not being represented by something you don’t believe in.

This is a valid point – but if the hypothetical Muslim country were willing to put up symbol representing faith traditions of the others who perished besides Muslims, we wouldn’t expect them to take down their own symbols too.

We should never attribute the actions of a few to the actions of the community or the Church or the government. People, especially leaders of people, make mistakes. Their mistakes do not condemn the whole community, just the people who made them. If we understood this basic principle, there would be a lot less hatred…

The Cross is a symbol, or rather, the symbol of an innocent being killed. The Ground Zero cross appears in context to be so powerful as a tribute to those innocent victims that anyone who knows a bit about what this Christian symbol means - regardless of what is his religion, or whether or not he believes in God - will understand what that symbol means: an innocent man was condemned to die by those who believed that it was the right thing to do.

How does that hurt someone who does not believe in God? It does not say “believe in God”, nor it attempts to convert people to Christianity. It does not even imply that all victims were Christian - we know well that it is not so! The cross is, and will always be, a universal symbol to represent such victims - much more than other religious symbols that may still be very meaningful, but not in this context.

My question to those who support this lawsuit, then, is: what in this symbol is so strongly telling you that God exists, so much that you feel it is forcing, imposing God on you, to the extent of “hurting” you?

Yes. I don’t see how it is actively hurting anyone, it’s not obscene or threatening except in a few people’s individual perceptions. The lawsuit seems to want to make a big fuss that would hurt lots of people’s feelings in ways that don’t honor those who lost those lives on 9/11 or the loved ones they left behind.