Having trouble with Old testament Scripture (Regarding the Enslavement of Women)

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Hi Everyone,

So, yesterday I was listening to a debate between a Christian and an Atheist; the atheist brought up God commanding Israel to sack city’s, kill all the men, wives, and enslave all the virgins to take as wives.

After hearing this, I went to look up these scripture passages and found a few. I am currently having a lot of trouble understanding them, because they make God sound like a terrible autocrat who endorses the enslavement of women and genocide of other countries. I will post some of the verses and maybe some of you can help understand them.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
  • If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.*
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
  • “When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.” *
    **
    (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)**
  • Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)*
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
  • They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Code: 
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.*
These are tough passages of scripture in the old testament, and I don’t know how to understand them. If we just say “well, we have to take scripture in context and God probably didn’t command them to do this,” I think we are kidding ourselves. Where do we draw the line on interpreting the parts of scripture when God commands Israel to do something? Just the nice parts? Sounds too good to be true.

Also, I don’t think we can just say “well God is God and we shouldn’t question his authority on matters;” I think that sounds reckless. If I was President, and God asked me to go invade another country, kill all of its men, and enslave its women, I probably wouldn’t do it, because I’d be skeptical that it was actually God I was hearing.

What does everyone think? (Apologies for the length of the post)
 
God’s laws in the Old Testament were not the final solution to mankind’s evil.

People were sacrificing their children, burning them alive to the god Molech. Boy prostitution, incest, homosexual gang rape, murdering your wife to get out of marriage, cannibalism and drinking blood… God’s rules about slavery, divorce, worship, women, children, sacrifice, violence, war, etc., were just the first controls on what had become an out of control situation. They were interim steps. Moses was an interim mediator. Animal sacrifice was an interim sacrifice. The rules on how to treat slaves were interim rules until slavery could be abolished entirely. And so forth.

God was slowly revealing his plan. The final solution to the world’s evils would come with Christ.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
God’s laws in the Old Testament were not the final solution to mankind’s evil.

People were sacrificing their children, burning them alive to the god Molech. Boy prostitution, incest, homosexual gang rape, murdering your wife to get out of marriage, cannibalism and drinking blood… God’s rules about slavery, divorce, worship, women, children, sacrifice, violence, war, etc., were just the first controls on what had become an out of control situation. They were interim steps. Moses was an interim mediator. Animal sacrifice was an interim sacrifice. The rules on how to treat slaves were interim rules until slavery could be abolished entirely. And so forth.

God was slowly revealing his plan. The final solution to the world’s evils would come with Christ.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
I think some of the points you bring up are good. However, God is the source of all objective morals, and the enslave of women, to me, seems objectively immoral. By condoning the acts in these passages He has not eradicated the problem, but somewhat endorsed it. If slavery is wrong, then why would he have told the Israelites to take women slaves as wives?
 
Aslan10 said:
I think some of the points you bring up are good. However, God is the source of all objective morals, and the enslave of women, to me, seems objectively immoral. By condoning the acts in these passages He has not eradicated the problem, but somewhat endorsed it. If slavery is wrong, then why would he have told the Israelites to take women slaves as wives?
Click to expand...
Because it’s literally the only way they would have ever been cared for.

I know that’s not a good argument by today’s standards, but the OT wasn’t written today, it was written more than 2,000 years ago in a very different time. If the women had been left behind after the conquest they’d have had next to no ability to support themselves. Women in most cultures of the day had no rights, and relied entirely on their husbands for support; when a woman’s husband died she was at the mercy of her neighbors for support, which was a tenuous situation to begin with, made even worse by the fact that their culture had just been conquered. By ordering the Israelites to take them as wives they were at the very least guaranteed the woman the means to live. It’s not a perfect system by today’s standards, but there were no social outreach programs back then and at least this made sure they were within a culture that wouldn’t view them as sexual slaves (which was the primary outcome for the women in most conquered civlizations). They were allowed to grieve, and not required to have sexual relations; they could even gain complete freedom in the Jewish society. Compare that to essentially being forced into prostitution for the rest of their lives, starving to death due to not being able to support themselves, or risk being tortured and imprisoned / maimed if they resort to theft to get food.

You cannot bring about massive shift in social structure overnight, and you cannot change the fundamental makeup of civilization in a single, solitary sweep. This was an intermediate step in God’s revelation to us. Also, the Deuteronomical Laws are not God’s direct laws, those are the Ten Commandments. They are the efforts of fallen humanity to put them into practice. Do not confuse their presence with them being the best option, or even what God intended. After all, Christ made it quite clear that the Laws of Moses were not what God intended when he rejected the notion of divorce. God is patient, and worked with the Jews where they were. It wasn’t perfect, but it was a step in the right direction.

The problem with people who make these types of arguments is that they’re really not looking to learn anything, they’re only looking to attack God. They’re intellectually dishonest because they try to compare civilization from thousands of years ago with civilization today, despite the fact that they are completely different. They don’t do this with other ancient civilizations, after all, the Hammurabi Code has some pretty barbarous stuff by today’s standards, but it’s praised as an early example of law. Only the early laws of Judaism get so much revilement and receive so much derision…
 
As an added comment to the previous poster with whom I agree totally, you should examine the practices of the civilizations around the Israelites about the same time frame.

In Greece the Spartans would kill any baby that had any “issues” by throwing him/her from a high point outside the city. They would not even give proper burial to these poor souls, left as feed to carrion birds and animals.

Harsh treatment to conquered people was the norm in ancient society, in fact you can read in the Bible that when the people of Israel abandoned GOD’s laws and started emulating the neighbors by adoring false gods and other abhorrent acts THEY were conquered and taken slaves to Babylon, where many died.
 
Aslan10 said:
I think some of the points you bring up are good. However, God is the source of all objective morals, and the enslave of women, to me, seems objectively immoral. By condoning the acts in these passages He has not eradicated the problem, but somewhat endorsed it. If slavery is wrong, then why would he have told the Israelites to take women slaves as wives?
Click to expand...
God’s rules in the Old Testament are temporary controls, that’s all. That is the answer.

You can argue that God isn’t just or that God commands immorality but it doesn’t change the answer.

I don’t know why God permitted evil, nor why he continues to allow evil.

-Tim-
 
JerryZ said:
Harsh treatment to conquered people was the norm in ancient society, in fact you can read in the Bible that when the people of Israel abandoned GOD’s laws and started emulating the neighbors by adoring false gods and other abhorrent acts THEY were conquered and taken slaves to Babylon, where many died.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the norm of man is not and should not be the norm for God, am I correct?
 
Aslan10 said:
Yes, but the norm of man is not and should not be the norm for God, am I correct?
Click to expand...
So because it happened historically, that’s God’s fault?
I would think that was an account of facts, things done by people who thought they were acting appropriately in that time, that culture. Of course they were wrong.
As Tim said, God’s ultimate plan was to be reveled through Christ.
I don’t necessarily look to the OT for rules and permissions.
In Christ there is a new covenant, the one to last for all time.

Peace.
 
Aslan10 said:
Hi Everyone,

So, yesterday I was listening to a debate between a Christian and an Atheist; the atheist brought up God commanding Israel to sack city’s, kill all the men, wives, and enslave all the virgins to take as wives.

After hearing this, I went to look up these scripture passages and found a few. I am currently having a lot of trouble understanding them, because they make God sound like a terrible autocrat who endorses the enslavement of women and genocide of other countries. I will post some of the verses and maybe some of you can help understand them.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
  • If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.*
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
  • “When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.” *
    **
    (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)**
  • Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)*
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
  • They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Code: 
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.*
These are tough passages of scripture in the old testament, and I don’t know how to understand them. If we just say “well, we have to take scripture in context and God probably didn’t command them to do this,” I think we are kidding ourselves. Where do we draw the line on interpreting the parts of scripture when God commands Israel to do something? Just the nice parts? Sounds too good to be true.

Also, I don’t think we can just say “well God is God and we shouldn’t question his authority on matters;” I think that sounds reckless. If I was President, and God asked me to go invade another country, kill all of its men, and enslave its women, I probably wouldn’t do it, because I’d be skeptical that it was actually God I was hearing.

What does everyone think? (Apologies for the length of the post)
Click to expand...
Disclaimer 1: Not condoning slavery in any way
Slavery in the Bible is not the same as the slavery practiced against Africans, Native Americans and others by Europeans or within Africa.

Biblical slavery - was akin to indentured servitude. Slaves had mandated rights, the allowable timeframe was usually thought to be 7 years, slaves had the right to convert to the Jewish faith. If they did convert, they cannot be treated as slaves, and any later children born to convert women cannot be treated as slaves, as they would be born Jewish. During the Years of Jubilee, slaves had to be freed. As a foreigner in the land, would also have to be free from mistreatment.

All that being said, it wasn’t of course always practiced as divinely ordained.
 
I would add that these are a primitive people trying to understand the God that created them, these stories are from the history of men attempting to connect themselves to their Creator. They struggle to understand their God, their God responds with the Incarnation od Jesus The Christ. Lessons are learned in the Old Testament, Truth is revealed in the New.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Disclaimer 1: Not condoning slavery in any way
Slavery in the Bible is not the same as the slavery practiced against Africans, Native Americans and others by Europeans or within Africa.

Biblical slavery - was akin to indentured servitude. Slaves had mandated rights, the allowable timeframe was usually thought to be 7 years, slaves had the right to convert to the Jewish faith. If they did convert, they cannot be treated as slaves, and any later children born to convert women cannot be treated as slaves, as they would be born Jewish. During the Years of Jubilee, slaves had to be freed. As a foreigner in the land, would also have to be free from mistreatment.

All that being said, it wasn’t of course always practiced as divinely ordained.
Click to expand...
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this seven year ‘humane slavery’ only applied to hebrew slaves and not other ‘permanent’ slaves. Is that correct?
 
pianistclare said:
So because it happened historically, that’s God’s fault?
I would think that was an account of facts, things done by people who thought they were acting appropriately in that time, that culture. Of course they were wrong.
As Tim said, God’s ultimate plan was to be reveled through Christ.
I don’t necessarily look to the OT for rules and permissions.
In Christ there is a new covenant, the one to last for all time.

Peace.
Click to expand...
Well, when scripture has quotations around a passage and God is the one being quoted, it’s tough not think that way.
 
By far the most disconcerting passage is the Numbers 31 excerpt. Moses literally commands them, by the divine command of God, to kill ‘every male among the little ones’ (RSV), ‘every male among the children’ (NABRE).

Children. CHILDREN. This meant literally EVERY male. Even infants. People claim that all of the slaughter in the Old Testament is merely metaphor, even though this has NEVER been a part of the traditional interpretation of the Church. Even one of the Fathers best known to interpret it as symbolic of sin, does not exclude that it literally happened. It defies logic still more because the books in which this happens are classified as the ‘histories’, and if we go by assertion of the author and genre, it takes an extraordinary amount of imaginative mental gymnastics to make all these instances into metaphor (as though an entire nation of people could just walk into a new land inhabited by others [the Israelites did historically take Palestine; there is no denying that], and the former inhabitants just magically disappear. What, did they all go on vacation?).

But really, is this wholesale slaughter inconsistent with God in the New Testament? Look at how many of Jesus’ parables talk about intense torment in the afterlife. See how many times he says that people will be cast into hell. Look at the standards that he requires. See that he chooses not to enlighten people, and allows people to be blind (which is also consistent with the Catholic theology of predestination). It could be argued that God in the NT, by inflicting eternal suffering on souls who fall short of perfection, is more terrifying than his justice administered in the OT through death and temporal destruction (even of infants).

It’s difficult, to be sure, especially with how he still treats the afflicted today (there exists suffering that drives people away from God, and so it is not redemptive suffering, but is suffering for the sake of suffering, and leads souls into hell, which is even more suffering. What kind of goodness is that?). Difficult.
 
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