"He made Him...to be sin."

[budgie2]

If you say it means sin offering I will accept that. I think it’s possible that Christ was conceived with Original Sin. Original sin is not a sin on our conscience but a flaw that we’ve inherited. By righteousness I think it means that we carry each others’ burdens which include the burdens of sin. He wants us to carry other peoples’ burdens of sin so he also took the burden of sin on himself. It could mean that Jesus was a sin offering or aswell that he inherited the same burden of sin as others. I do not think Original Sin should be called sin and my personal theory is that it is a disability in the soul which is inherited.

 

[NotWorthy]

If you say it means sin offering I will accept that. I think it’s possible that Christ was conceived with Original Sin. Original sin is not a sin on our conscience but a flaw that we’ve inherited. By righteousness I think it means that we carry each others’ burdens which include the burdens of sin. He wants us to carry other peoples’ burdens of sin so he also took the burden of sin on himself. It could mean that Jesus was a sin offering or aswell that he inherited the same burden of sin as others. I do not think Original Sin should be called sin and my personal theory is that it is a disability in the soul which is inherited.

Neither Christ, nor His mother, was conceived with Original Sin.

 

[NotWorthy]

I do not think Original Sin should be called sin and my personal theory is that it is a disability in the soul which is inherited.

You are crrect on these two statements. OS is not a sin and it is a disability (lack of Sanctifying Grace) that we inherit.

 

[PJM]

=budgie2;5356240]If you say it means sin offering I will accept that. I think it’s possible that Christ was conceived with Original Sin. Original sin is not a sin on our conscience but a flaw that we’ve inherited. By righteousness I think it means that we carry each others’ burdens which include the burdens of sin. He wants us to carry other peoples’ burdens of sin so he also took the burden of sin on himself. It could mean that Jesus was a sin offering or aswell that he inherited the same burden of sin as others. I do not think Original Sin should be called sin and my personal theory is that it is a disability in the soul which is inherited.

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Impossible unless YOUR god is not perfect like MY God is? IF you actually beleive this friend you lack a true foundational understanding the the very Nature of God; which can be described that “God is all good, and only all good perfectly.”***

No, I do not belief that this is a primary understanding. What God desires us to.

***The Catholic dictionary ties the word “righteousness” in with “justification.”

The process of a sinner becoming justified or made right with God. As defined by the Council of Trent, “Justification is the change from the condition in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam into a state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the Second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior” (Denzinger 1524). On the negative side, justification is a true removal of sin, and not merely having one’s sins ignored or no longer held against the sinner by God. On the positive side it is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven.

The Catholic Church identifies five elements of justification, which collectively define its full meaning. The primary purpose of justification is the honor of God and of Christ; its secondary purpose is the eternal life of mankind. The main efficient cause or agent is the mercy of God; the main instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is called the “sacrament of faith” to spell out the necessity of faith for salvation. And that which constitutes justification or its essence is the justice of God, “not by which He is just Himself, but by which He makes us just,” namely sanctifying grace.

Depending on the sins from which a person is to be delivered, there are different kinds of justification. An infant is justified by baptism and the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament. Adults are justified for the first time either by personal faith, sorrow for sin and baptism, or by the perfect love of God, which is at least an implicit baptism of desire. Adults who have sinned gravely after being justified can receive justification by sacramental absolution or perfect contrition for their sins. * **

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Righteousness has to do with “getting right with God” which is not something we can do for someone, as much as it is something we can do with someone. This statement is not meant to discount prayers for the living and the dead, as is our Christian duty.

In the sense that all sin effects everyone, and no sin is truly private, we are effected by each others sins. But not to the point of "carrying them for someone else. Sin is always a "personal NO to God. and it is the sinner who must repent and convert; however we may and should pray that they will do so.***

 

[budgie2]

I’m not saying that Christ actually committed sin. I’m just saying that it’s possible he was conceived with Original Sin. To be conceived with original sin doesn’t mean he committed any sin as it’s not a free choice. And I do not see this in contradiction with believing that God is perfect. For God to be perfect he would carry the same burdens as everybody else which may include the inheritance of Original Sin. I see God as more perfect this way. But that’s individual choice.

It may be that Christ/God had to experience human weakness to have compassion (my theory). I don’t see it as a contradiction.

 

[PJM]

=budgie2;5358695]I’m not saying that Christ actually committed sin. I’m just saying that it’s possible he was conceived with Original Sin. To be conceived with original sin doesn’t mean he committed any sin as it’s not a free choice. And I do not see this in contradiction with believing that God is perfect. For God to be perfect he would carry the same burdens as everybody else which may include the inheritance of Original Sin. I see God as more perfect this way. But that’s individual choice.

It may be that Christ/God had to experience human weakness to have compassion (my theory). I don’t see it as a contradiction.

Friend the position you hold is in opposition to a taught and held position of the RCC on a matter of FAITH. Your church cannot be in errot; therefore you are.

***God cannot sin

God cannot condone sin

God cannot have the stain of any sin, or He could not be a perfect God.

You do not have a choice in the matter beyond assenting to the Official teaching of the RCC.***

***The Code of Canon Law

"Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth."***

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m not saying that Christ actually committed sin. I’m just saying that it’s possible he was conceived with Original Sin. To be conceived with original sin doesn’t mean he committed any sin as it’s not a free choice. And I do not see this in contradiction with believing that God is perfect. For God to be perfect he would carry the same burdens as everybody else which may include the inheritance of Original Sin. I see God as more perfect this way. But that’s individual choice.

It may be that Christ/God had to experience human weakness to have compassion (my theory). I don’t see it as a contradiction.

I never hinted that your were claiming Jesus sinned. But you are saying that Jesus was conceived without Sanctifying Grace (the result of inheriting Original Sin). The presence of Sanctifying Grace is the presence of God within your soul. Now, is Jesus God? Or is He not? If Jesus is God, then there can be no way that he can have Original Sin.

 

[bogeydogg]

The Protestant understanding actually was pulled out of thin air by Luther. The concept of imputation is taught in Scripture, but not in the way that Protestantism needs it to (Paul was well aware of the term and never used it as Sola Fide requires).

This is a popular but erroneous understanding. Sins were not imputed to the OT sacrifices, nor was God’s wrath dumped on the animal instead, that’s actually read into the passage by Protestants. Two points to consider: Sacrifices not dealing with sin had hands laid on the head of the animal, which is illogical if it signifies sin being imputed. Second, the sin offering allowed you to offer a bag of flour if you could not afford an animal, this likewise would be impossible if God was looking to punish something in place of the sinner.
See this debate (especially the essays marked * ) for more info:
catholicdefense.googlepages.com/psdebate

Faith was not accepted in lieu of actual righteousness, rather “faith reckoned as righteousness” means faith was a righteous act and acknowledged as such by God. The term for “credit/impute/reckon” is logizomai in Greek and it hardly ever means “count in lieu of actual status.”
Look at 3 examples of where the same Greek word as “faith credited as righteousness” appears:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude [logizomai] that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon [logizomai] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon [logizomai] that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Notice in these examples that “logizomai” means to consider the actual truth of an object. In 3:28 Paul ‘reckons’ faith saves while the Law does not, this is a fact, the Law never saves. In 6:11 the Christian is ‘reckoned’ dead to sin because he is in fact dead to sin. In 8:18 Paul ‘reckons’ the present sufferings as having no comparison to Heavenly glory, and that is true because nothing compares to Heavenly glory.

To use logizomai in the “alien status” way would mean in: (1) 3:28 faith doesn’t really save apart from works, but we are going to go ahead and say it does; (2) 6:11 that we are not really dead to sin but are going to say we are; (3) 8:18 the present sufferings are comparable to Heaven’s glory.
This cannot be right.

This is a very popular understanding, but is in fact very foreign to Scripture. God the Father never imputed guilt to His Son nor did He dump His wrath on Jesus.

I totally understand what you’re saying, the fact is these claims are simply not found in Scripture, they are read into Scripture as part of Sola Fide.

This concept is not found in Scripture and blasphemous. I’ve studied this issue more than most have, so I’m not just making stuff up here. In fact, Protestantism (Sola Fide) teaches God the Father virtually damned His Son Jesus to Hell while on the Cross (in our place).

You say sola fide like its a bad thing.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You say sola fide like its a bad thing.

Heresy is always a bad thing.

 

[scameter18]

To understand the first verse you quoted, you have to understand the “sin offerings” of the Law, which involved having a lamb, a representative of complete purity, with the sins of people in Israel written down on little pieces of paper and attached to it’s back, before it was sacrificed, it’s spilled blood then becoming the Passover marking over the people so that God would overlook their sins. But that Passover was merely an image of Christ’s sacrifice, which we all participate in in the Eucharist. But, when it says that Christ “was made sin”, that means that He became the sin offering: something complete pure and innocent, taking on not only the sins of people, or original sin, but sin itself and it’s originator, Satan, whom He defeated as His death. Christ was sin at His crucifixion; sin itself was attached to His back, and by dying, He completely paid the price for sin that before could only be satisfied by death, i.e. someone’s soul staying with their dead body after death. But by His redemption of us, our souls, which always had everlasting life, were able to leave our bodies after death and go to Heaven, if we were saved during our lifetime (which is different than redemption).

 

[bogeydogg]

Heresy is always a bad thing.

I agree, glad we got that out of the way so soon.

Now, are you saying that it is heresy to say that we are saved by faith since the CCC sure seems to…

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

Without faith no one is saved.

124 “The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which hand on the ultimate truth of God’s Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church’s beginnings under the Spirit’s guidance.

The object of that faith is the Lord.

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers… with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.” Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

The faith we are to have is that Christ paid ransom for us by being made sin.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

Those who are saved will hold to the faith until the end.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the “hierarchy of the truths of faith”. The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men “and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin”.

A full and total faith is necessary for salvation.

So obviously you didn’t mean that the doctrinus fide is heresy. Surly then you meant the idea of sola fide is heresy, and here is your problem; you don’t know what it means. Luther never said that faith alone is what saves, but that salvation itself comes fully from faith, and since it was Luther who said faith alone saved but not faith by itself then surely something more subtle was intended. Want proof?

Thesis 1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

So clearly Luther felt repentance was a part of salvation as well.

One more thing if Christ being made curse is blasphemy, then what did St. Paul mean when he said, (Galatians 6) 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”*), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Surely you did not mean to call St. Paul a blasphemer either.

God Bless,

Ray.

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree, glad we got that out of the way so soon.

Now, are you saying that it is heresy to say that we are saved by faith since the CCC sure seems to…

No, I believe the term he used was “Sola Fide”, which means Faith Alone. As James points out, Faith Alone (i.e. Faith without Works) is a dead faith.

 

[bogeydogg]

No, I believe the term he used was “Sola Fide”, which means Faith Alone. As James points out, Faith Alone (i.e. Faith without Works) is a dead faith.

Yes but Luther did not believe that faith alone saved but that faith was the total substance of salvation, however a faith apart from repentance, works of charity, mercy etc., would not save since such faith bore none of the fruits of salvation which Scripture demands.

God Bless,

Ray.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes but Luther did not believe that faith alone saved but that faith was the total substance of salvation, however a faith apart from repentance, works of charity, mercy etc., would not save since such faith bore none of the fruits of salvation which Scripture demands.

God Bless,

Ray.

OK… but our good friend was condemning Faith Alone, which many Protestants declare (no matter what Luther believed). Many Protestants use Luther as a source of Faith Alone.

 

[bogeydogg]

I agree, but the question of whether people have misapplied teaching, no matter who the author, is very different from the question concerning what did someone actually write.

I am greatly disturbed by the level of indifference toward personal conduct and holiness among protestants, but that would be another thread all together.

God Bless,

Ray

 

[PJM]

I agree, glad we got that out of the way so soon.

Now, are you saying that it is heresy to say that we are saved by faith since the CCC sure seems to…

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

Without faith no one is saved.

124 “The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which hand on the ultimate truth of God’s Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church’s beginnings under the Spirit’s guidance.

The object of that faith is the Lord.

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers… with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.” Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

The faith we are to have is that Christ paid ransom for us by being made sin.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

Those who are saved will hold to the faith until the end.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the “hierarchy of the truths of faith”. The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men “and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin”.

A full and total faith is necessary for salvation.

So obviously you didn’t mean that the doctrinus fide is heresy. Surly then you meant the idea of sola fide is heresy, and here is your problem; you don’t know what it means. Luther never said that faith alone is what saves, but that salvation itself comes fully from faith, and since it was Luther who said faith alone saved but not faith by itself then surely something more subtle was intended. Want proof?

Thesis 1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

So clearly Luther felt repentance was a part of salvation as well.

One more thing if Christ being made curse is blasphemy, then what did St. Paul mean when he said, (Galatians 6) 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”*), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Surely you did not mean to call St. Paul a blasphemer either.

God Bless,

Ray.

Please read Jn. 3:5 and 3: 36, Mt. 19:16, Jn.20: 21-22 and Mt. Chapter 5, 1 Cor. chapter 13.

The question is mutiple choice. Faith is but part of the answer, so you need to choose “D” all of the above to be saved.

God says so not just me