Heaven and Hell as States

  • Thread starter Thread starter The_Truthinator
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

The_Truthinator

Guest
Someone pointed out in another thread that the RCC defines hell as a “state,” rather than a place. This is a relief! Coming from a fundamentalist background, this position was strongly condemned, but I knew even then that’s its force was much greater (that we, here in this lifetime, by rejecting Grace, ultimately condemn ourselves to emptiness, torment–a hell of sorts, even now), but what exactly are the profound implications of such an assertion?

So does this mean heaven also is a state?

Elaboration, maybe …?

Thanks!
 
Based on the model of the universe given in the OT hell would have been a place below and heaven in spherical layers above the flat earth. I can only speculate that there is some truth in this in that heaven and hell exist in a dimension around us that we cannot see and are co-terminal with the Universe. Are they a state of being rather than exact places? I see no reason why not. Am I sure? Of course not.
 
The_Truthinator said:
Someone pointed out in another thread that the RCC defines hell as a “state,” rather than a place. This is a relief! Coming from a fundamentalist background, this position was strongly condemned, but I knew even then that’s its force was much greater (that we, here in this lifetime, by rejecting Grace, ultimately condemn ourselves to emptiness, torment–a hell of sorts, even now), but what exactly are the profound implications of such an assertion?

So does this mean heaven also is a state?

Elaboration, maybe …?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Can you link the thread or list the portion of the catechism that defines heaven and hell as a state? I understand that hell is the total abscense of God, but I never assumed the actual ‘place’ hell did not exist.

-D
 
I have to admit that I too thought this was either going to be ‘red and blue states’ or else Vermont and any other state. . .
 
I wish people would stop trying to bend their minds around things that are beyond human understanding. There are some things the human intellect simply cannot reach.

Hell is real, and we go there if we die in mortal sin. That’s all we need to know.
 
Dauphin said:
I wish people would stop trying to bend their minds around things that are beyond human understanding. There are some things the human intellect simply cannot reach.

Hell is real, and we go there if we die in mortal sin. That’s all we need to know.
Click to expand...
Disagree.

For some folks, that’s all they need to know. Then there are those who are fascinated by the theology behind our faith, and whose personal faith is reinforced by learning more about it.

Is it acceptable to say, “Ok, there’s a hell, and if I do what I must, I won’t go there”? Sure. But isn’t it, perhaps, more beneficial to exercise our reason and seek understanding of the truth we accept?

Peace,
Dante
 
As far as Michigan and California go, If my friends in California are telling the truth about their taxes, I know which one is hell. Anyway, look at the speaker of the house, It’s rather obvious where she dwells. So much for advice from Horace Greely.
 
There is a show that EWTN ran called “What every Catholic needs to know about hell”. It has Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, and many others. I don’t know if you can find it archived online anywhere, but they go in to depth about hell.

They said most believe it to be a place in the Earth, which creates a quandry that I’m stell pondering, since the earth will be gone in about 5 billion years, where does hell go since it’s eternal? I haven’t received an answer on the philosophy forum to this question.

Perhaps it’s the place people are held until the last judgement when souls are cast in to the lake of fire. 🤷 I got the impression from them that it is both a place and a state.

One things for sure, I don’t ever want to find out as a resident.:eek:
 
Well, since it is particularly stated in scripture that a ‘new heaven’ and a ‘new earth’ will come. . .and we know that everybody will be in either heaven OR hell after the last judgment. . .that seems to indicate that the ‘new earth’ will contain hell. . .
 
I think that the most basic definition of heaven and hell are indeed as states. The state of being in union with God is heaven and the state of being separated is hell. Heaven is rather like when you find or are reunited with the love of your life and you could care less where it is, so long as it is with the other person. All that said, it doesn’t mean there is no time and space for us in the afterlife. The fact that we receive our bodies again means there is some sort of physicality (and likely some perception of eternal time passage) for us after death.

LT
 
DanteAlighieri said:
Disagree.

For some folks, that’s all they need to know. Then there are those who are fascinated by the theology behind our faith, and whose personal faith is reinforced by learning more about it.

Is it acceptable to say, “Ok, there’s a hell, and if I do what I must, I won’t go there”? Sure. But isn’t it, perhaps, more beneficial to exercise our reason and seek understanding of the truth we accept?

Peace,
Dante
Click to expand...
It’s about as benefical for me to seek a full understanding of hell as it is beneficial to try to teach my dog latin.
 
CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
 
  1. If hell is a “place”, then it must have been created by God.
  2. If hell is a place where God is “absent” - then God created a place where He doesn’t exist.
  3. Therefore, God is not infinite.
See the problem with the notion that hell is a “place”?

What do we read in Scripture?
Nahum 1

6 Who can stand before the face of his indignation? and who shall resist in the fierceness of his anger? his indignation is poured out like fire: and the rocks are melted by him.
Click to expand...
Malachias 4

1 For behold the day shall come kindled as a furnace: and all the proud, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall set them on fire, saith the Lord of hosts, it shall not leave them root, nor branch.
Click to expand...
Ezechiel 22

31 And I poured out my indignation upon them, in the fire of my wrath I consumed them: I have rendered their way upon their own head, saith the Lord God.
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 3

13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.
Click to expand...
Apocalypse 14

10 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.
Click to expand...
The fire of God will test (and refine) us here on Earth, punish the wicked in the hereafter, and warm the saints. According to Revelation, those suffering in hell are in the sight of not only God, but the holy angels, too!

Therefore, “hell” does not seem to be a “place” geographically compared to heaven. 1) Because it’s not possible for God to create a place where He doesn’t exist - unless by “place”, one is referring to an emotional or psychological state, and 2) Because Scripture indicates that the fire of God touches all, but with much different outcomes. The damned will not enjoy a beatific vision, but one which sears their souls in pain, regret, loss, separation, agony, and hatred of God and all who they can see enjoying a much different, beatific vision of God.
 
tm30 said:
  1. If hell is a “place”, then it must have been created by God.
  2. If hell is a place where God is “absent” - then God created a place where He doesn’t exist.
  3. Therefore, God is not infinite.
See the problem with the notion that hell is a “place”?
Click to expand...
are you sure that it’s not your premise that’s limiting God. I think if God can cast our sins as far as the east is from the west and no longer remember them, He’s capable of creating a place that He’s not physically or spiritually present. My understanding is that most theologians agree that it is both a state and a place.
 
I was listening to Peter Kreeft talk about heaven today, and he made an interesting statement about Hell. I wish I could remember who he quoted, but he said, in response to a question about loved ones who go to hell when we go to Heaven. “If uncle Bill is in hell he will not retain any of the human characteristics that we remember uncle bill to be. He will be nothing more than an eternal ash”. He said that we will probably see God’s justice clearly as He sees it.

I just thought it was an interesting observation. You can find it on this page.
bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm
 
The_Truthinator said:
Someone pointed out in another thread that the RCC defines hell as a “state,” rather than a place. This is a relief! Coming from a fundamentalist background, this position was strongly condemned, but I knew even then that’s its force was much greater (that we, here in this lifetime, by rejecting Grace, ultimately condemn ourselves to emptiness, torment–a hell of sorts, even now), but what exactly are the profound implications of such an assertion?

So does this mean heaven also is a state?

Elaboration, maybe …?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I have posted before, that we are all whether or not we like the idea, in the presence of G_d.
There is a bad multilingual pun on paradise, namely:
Para, Greek, ‘along side’
Deus, Latin, ‘G_d’
Hence Paradise, ‘with G_d’
This is a situation in which we find ourselves from the moment of birth, and we believe that this situation will not change with death.
Where the ‘state’ comes in is here:
If we do not like being in the presence of G_d, for we see G_d as the enemy, then that state (of mind) is Hell.
If though, We lovingly strive for that presence, and see G_d as our loving father, then that state is Heaven.
This is as far as I know, my personal revelation, but no-one has to date condemned it to my knowledge.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top