Heaven and the Fate of Possessions

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I wanted to share some thoughts I’ve been having on the topic of possessions and Heaven. According to C.S. Lewis, no one in Heaven can have possessions, which he admits imperils the significance of the Pearl of Great Price, yet he never addressed the issue any deeper than that.

Quite honestly, as a Thomist, I find this hard to swallow. On Thomism, all pearls, houses, books, food, and other things that one can own are “good things” and all “good things” come from God. So if God can allow people access to good things in this life, it seems baffling that such a thing would be difficult for him in Heaven.

I have puzzled over this conundrum for literally years, and I believe I’ve found a plausible answer to it. It’s possible that by “possessions,” Lewis was referring to exclusive possessions. In short, to having the ability to prohibit other people from using something that you don’t want them to use, even though it costs you nothing, like an IP-holder. I can certainly understand that position, and it does seem to be compatible with the traditional understanding of the Pearl of Great Price (as a real investment in exchange for usable value.)

If, however, any Christian holds the actual position that Heaven is without usable value as a whole, I would very much like to hear why they think this, and how they make sense of the “Pearl of Great Price” and “Treasure in the Field” parables, as well as how, precisely, this is generous of God, since it doesn’t involve him giving good things to the faithful.

My position is that Heaven (even before the New Heavens) is much more physical-like than we usually think, that since spirits can see and hear, it only makes sense that they can also touch, taste and smell, and that Heaven is a real environment in which the faithful are rewarded with both longevity and immunity to temptation, as well as limitless resources of infinite types, and an intimate relationship with God, so that they want for nothing. Anything less would fall short of the needs of the human soul, and would therefore not be an adequate end goal in my mind, but I’m eager to hear what other people have to say on this topic.
 
In Australia, unlike in the USA I believe, nobody can “own” a beach, possibly with the exception of some resort islands (and even then I’m not sure - if somebody wants to pull a boat up on a resort island and go for a walk on the beach, then they can still do so as far as I’m aware).

Nobody “owns” the beach, and it is available to all. It exists as a material item, but can be enjoyed by all, and nobody can lay exclusive ownership to that beach.

In the same way, I think all things in heaven will be available to all, but nobody will be able to lay personal claim to any item or feature.

Finally its my understanding that the beatific vision will be so all consuming we won’t want anything else. We won’t need food or water or shade or shelter, so what would be the point of owning things?

I’ve got a bad habit of buying too many books. But in an environment where all knowledge is available intuitively, who’s going to need a book? Fortunately when this universe disappears with a loud roar, so will my overstuffed collection of books. They’ll just be fuel for the bonfire.

And I won’t need them.
 
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I had no idea St. Thomas said that. I’d chalked it up to his Aristotelianism. This isn’t rooted in Christian teaching, but Aristotle’s. Aristotle taught that matter is eternal. Only God is eternal.
 
I rather think the experience of Heaven must be so distant from our known experience that any speculation is futile.
 
We can experience some of heaven here and now too, through the liturgy, worshipping with all of the saints, and by detaching oneself from the world.

There’s a reason why early icons of John the Baptist had him have angel’s wings. For the ascetic life is like the angels - unearthly. He’s the model of monastics ever since.
 
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In Australia, unlike in the USA I believe, nobody can “own” a beach, possibly with the exception of some resort islands (and even then I’m not sure - if somebody wants to pull a boat up on a resort island and go for a walk on the beach, then they can still do so as far as I’m aware).

Nobody “owns” the beach, and it is available to all. It exists as a material item, but can be enjoyed by all, and nobody can lay exclusive ownership to that beach.

In the same way, I think all things in heaven will be available to all, but nobody will be able to lay personal claim to any item or feature.
Thank you. That makes a great deal of sense.
Finally its my understanding that the beatific vision will be so all consuming we won’t want anything else. We won’t need food or water or shade or shelter, so what would be the point of owning things?
It’s not a question of needs. I don’t “need” to think about philosophy, but I do so because it composes one part of the ideal experience; elevation of the mind. In the same way, there are many other things which, in this life, are far from ideal, but are not far from ideal merely because they are physical. They have simply been spoiled by human beings. If this life were the only arena in which things of limited parameters existed, the canvas of Heaven would be like a piece of modern art; featureless and empty, undeserving of all the artistry and soul raised in its name.
I’ve got a bad habit of buying too many books. But in an environment where all knowledge is available intuitively, who’s going to need a book? Fortunately when this universe disappears with a loud roar, so will my overstuffed collection of books. They’ll just be fuel for the bonfire.

And I won’t need them.
And what about the experience; the flavor of the creak of an old binding; the feeling of the paper between your fingertips; the wonder of discovering whatever is on the next page? Clearly, Heaven must be more than just a featureless happiness, or this world would be the richer, which is quite impossible.
 
I had no idea St. Thomas said that. I’d chalked it up to his Aristotelianism. This isn’t rooted in Christian teaching, but Aristotle’s. Aristotle taught that matter is eternal. Only God is eternal.
Thomas Aquinas defined “eternal” as a state of existence with no beginning and no end. However, if the only states were “eternal” and “mortal,” there would be no hope for any man. We would all perish.

For this reason, he proposed something called the Aevum; a state of existence with a beginning, but with no end, in which the saints may live, and in which the angels live. That’s the understanding of Heaven’s relationship to time, which I think is the most likely.
 
Thanks for explaining 🙂

Did he ever differentiate “Aevum” with the what the Resurrection might be?
 
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I rather think the experience of Heaven must be so distant from our known experience that any speculation is futile.
For some people, like myself, that would be a good thing. I’ve never felt comfortable with the affairs of everyday life, and always preferred the strangest kinds of stories over the business of my own fellow human beings. However, it seems unlikely that most people would be able to live that way; devoid of anything even slightly familiar, and in any case, the bible mentions many things in a Heavenly context, which are familiar to us here, like gemstones, gates, fountains, blood and land. So I think that many things of Earth will also be recognizable in Heaven, though certainly not everything.
 
We can experience some of heaven here and now too, through the liturgy, worshipping with all of the saints, and by detaching oneself from the world.

There’s a reason why early icons of John the Baptist had him have angel’s wings. For the ascetic life is like the angels - unearthly. He’s the model of monastics ever since.
This is another source of some confusion. There seems to be a notion that we should detach ourselves from the world, not merely because of the evil that’s done in it, and the wicked temptations that it subjects us to, but just because it’s a world. I’ve never read anything in scripture or Church tradition to support that view, and there are a few good reasons to question it.

To start with, if Adam hadn’t sinned, there would have been no need for what we call the ascetic life, because there would be no concupiscence to avoid.

Secondly, in order for it to be holy to love only God and nothing else, it would need to make us more like God. However, God does not love only himself and nothing else. Therefore, this does not make us more like God. The passages in scripture and tradition that command us to love God over anything else, and even the points where Jesus talks about how we must hate mother/father/etc… are talking about setting priorities properly, and how we must learn to avoid everything which would keep us from God; especially sin and temptation.

The third good reason is the resurrection of Jesus, which, according to Saint Paul in his letter to the Romans, means that our bodies also will be raised to life. However, to be in a featureless void with one other life is not “life” in the modern sense, much less in the Jewish sense, where the word for “life,” (Chai) refers to everything that makes life good.

There are other reasons to question this interpretation, but really, this is enough.
Thanks for explaining 🙂

Did he ever differentiate “Aevum” with the what the Resurrection might be?
The resurrection of the body takes place “on the last day,” meaning the final day of mortal time (or perhaps the “last day” refers to the Aevum itself.) All resurrected bodies are unable to perish, and so, all of them would be in the Aevum, but as for whether it’s an extension of our current time continuum, or a separate one, that’s unclear.
 
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And what about the experience; the flavor of the creak of an old binding; the feeling of the paper between your fingertips; the wonder of discovering whatever is on the next page? Clearly, Heaven must be more than just a featureless happiness, or this world would be the richer, which is quite impossible.
We don’t know what is going to be in heaven. What will be missing will be any sense of ownership.

I’ll put it this way - to go back to my beach example, an Australian Prime Minister in his budgie wear will be no better off than a Victorian chimney sweep wearing the traditional gear of the time. If anything, since the last will be first, I suspect the downtrodden chimney sweep will be more highly regarded in heaven than a politician who suffered very little in his life.

The Victorian Chimney Sweep - https://www.google.com.au/search?q=photograph+of+victorian+chimney+sweep&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=vSszUtaj4aK4eM%3A%2CwsvsdVJHwau8UM%2C_&usg=__WaLdMPrzA_uFS0WTubzKwZVvSC8%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisuYbkm6faAhVQObwKHd9pAtAQ9QEISTAQ#imgrc=vSszUtaj4aK4eM:

Australian Prime Minister (former Prime Minister Tony Abbott - he is extremely fit by the way) in his budgie wear - https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tony+abbott+budgie+photography&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=z0lJScUcR7MFrM%3A%2C6Isqyj2WUwKt1M%2C_&usg=__Wjvro7btY2SnO6MBZ8WGVsghf-A%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9s7f-m6faAhXFXbwKHW7SDI8Q9QEIMTAE&biw=1440&bih=707#imgrc=z0lJScUcR7MFrM:
 
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One thing that I know as true -
Possession - do possess - the person.

A person usually has 4,000 possessions.
In your car. Closet. Fridge. Etc.

What was Job’s most famous quote -
God giveth and God taketh away…
It must be a very unique heavenly feeling -
being on your death bed -
content with nothing but Jesus.
 
We don’t know what is going to be in heaven.
It’s not necessary to know everything about what Heaven will be like, but it is important, I feel, to determine some of it, or how can a grounded, rational person conclude that it’s more desirable than this life?

A series of vague claims about some nebulous “vision” are simply not enough. Visions are not interactive, and most of our pleasant experiences on this Earth are, so I think it’s important to establish, at least, that there is more to Heaven than just a vision.
What will be missing will be any sense of ownership.

I’ll put it this way - to go back to my beach example, an Australian Prime Minister in his budgie wear will be no better off than a Victorian chimney sweep wearing the traditional gear of the time. If anything, since the last will be first, I suspect the downtrodden chimney sweep will be more highly regarded in heaven than a politician who suffered very little in his life.
Yes. I think you’re right. Every existing thing, human beings included, belongs properly to God, and we are permitted to use some of them because God allows it. This is a necessary property of existing things, so I don’t see how it could be any different in Heaven, except that God could allow people in Heaven to use more of his things; even any of them, as opposed to an unpleasantly-limited amount, as in this life. This is possible without unfairness in a realm of limitless resources.
 
You’re asking how it’s more desirable than this life? It’s being closer to the presence of God! Or rather being fully cleansed of the things that keep us from God (you could call it “purged”/purified/etc).
 
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One thing that I know as true -
Possession - do possess - the person.

A person usually has 4,000 possessions.
In your car. Closet. Fridge. Etc.

What was Job’s most famous quote -
God giveth and God taketh away…
It must be a very unique heavenly feeling -
being on your death bed -
content with nothing but Jesus.
“And said: Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: as it hath pleased the Lord so is it done: blessed be the name of the Lord. In all these things Job sinned not by his lips, nor spoke he any foolish thing against God.”
Job 1:21-22

I Think this is what you’re referring to. However, as meritorious as it was for Job to say this, I don’t see how one could say this of Heaven; particularly with regard to nakedness, when Saint Paul said it so well…

“For we also, who are in this tabernacle, do groan, being burthened; because we would not be unclothed, but clothed upon, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life.”
2 Corinthians 5:4
 
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You’re asking how it’s more desirable than this life? It’s being closer to the presence of God! Or rather being fully cleansed of the things that keep us from God (you could call it “purged”/purified/etc).
Now, I have two points with regard to this.
  1. In what sense is closeness to God better for human happiness?
  2. In what sense is this answer useful in conversion? After all, your average person is not swimming in holiness and longing for God, but is just disappointed at all the things they’ve failed to get, or failed to enjoy in this life. Even people who may wish for a better life on some level don’t wish for a lite of God only. How does closeness to God help to fix this problem, and provide what they truly desire?
Also, my points about the Pearl of Great Price and the treasure in the field haven’t been replied to yet, which I was sort of hoping for.
 
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Now, I have two points with regard to this.

In what sense is closeness to God better for human happiness?
In what sense is this answer useful in conversion? After all, your average person is not swimming in holiness and longing for God, but is just disappointed at all the things they’ve failed to get, or failed to enjoy in this life. Even people who way wish for a better life on some level don’t wish for a lite of God only. How does closeness to God help to fix this problem, and provide what they truly desire?

Also, my points about the Pearl of Great Price and the treasure in the field haven’t been replied to yet, which I was sort of hoping for.
  1. It goes all the way back to the beginning. Losing the presence of God is the most immediate consequence of sin, as Adam and Eve lost that relationship of God walking amongst them. And then Eden being sealed off by the angels. Of course, God still pitied them, made skins for their clothing, and let them be… but there was still something broken here. God’s pity is not the presence we should long for indefinitely.
  2. Is related to 1. We need salvation from this issue. It’s not a mistake that the most famous prophecy of our Lord is “Immanuel” - “God with us”.
The fact that the average person is not longing for God is their own problem - but it is a consequence of that original sin as well. The serpent promised that we would “be like gods”. This is the true birth of ego… that fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The delusion of thinking we’re the “I am”, when there is only one true “I AM”.

Secondly, the other major consequence of sin is Death. Not just decay, but our entire corrupt nature. The whole world needs to be saved from this, even if they don’t realize it’s God who has the answer.

I don’t know anything about the Pearl of Great Price. I only woke up awhile back, and haven’t perused the thread. I just replied to the last post 🙂
 
Let me go over this again.
In what sense is closeness to God better for human happiness?
Now, your response to this was, in full…
  1. It goes all the way back to the beginning. Losing the presence of God is the most immediate consequence of sin, as Adam and Eve lost that relationship of God walking amongst them. And then Eden being sealed off by the angels. Of course, God still pitied them, made skins for their clothing, and let them be… but there was still something broken here. God’s pity is not the presence we should long for indefinitely.
This in no way answers my first question. Secondly…
In what sense is this answer useful in conversion?
You said…
  1. Is related to 1. We need salvation from this issue. It’s not a mistake that the most famous prophecy of our Lord is “Immanuel” - “God with us”.
This in no way answers my second question.

I also said…
In what sense is this answer useful in conversion? After all, your average person is not swimming in holiness and longing for God, but is just disappointed at all the things they’ve failed to get, or failed to enjoy in this life. Even people who way wish for a better life on some level don’t wish for a lite of God only. How does closeness to God help to fix this problem, and provide what they truly desire?
You responded in the following ways…
The fact that the average person is not longing for God is their own problem - but it is a consequence of that original sin as well. The serpent promised that we would “be like gods”. This is the true birth of ego… that fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The delusion of thinking we’re the “I am”, when there is only one true “I AM”.
Any petty tyrant can tell people that the best thing for them is to want only what the tyrant wants. Clearly, God is a better person than that, so this is not the full answer.
Secondly, the other major consequence of sin is Death. Not just decay, but our entire corrupt nature. The whole world needs to be saved from this, even if they don’t realize it’s God who has the answer.
Another thing that any petty tyrant can do is threaten you with death if you don’t comply. Again, I’d like to think better of God, than that there’s nothing more to Him than that. Indeed, if I didn’t think better of God, it would almost be blasphemous.
 
Finally…
I don’t know anything about the Pearl of Great Price. I only woke up awhile back, and haven’t perused the thread. I just replied to the last post 🙂
“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in a field. Which a man having found, hid it, and for joy thereof goeth, and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a merchant seeking good pearls. Who when he had found one pearl of great price, went his way, and sold all that he had, and bought it.”
Matthew 14:44-46

Now, no merchant would be stupid enough to sell all that he has, buy a huge pearl, and then just sit out in his field with that pearl until he starves to death, naked and alone. Clearly, he buys the pearl because he recognizes that by selling it, he can make a profit. If the same is not true of Heaven; if Heaven is not actually (and not merely subjectively) profitable, it would be a bad investment.

P.S.: So far, this discussion has further validated me in the course I’m currently taking, of devoting a large amount of time to a thorough exegesis of the bible verses related to Heaven, so that people can learn more about it. There’s so much confusion caused by vague terminology, which doesn’t need to take place.
 
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The profit of the Pearl is in heaven. “Lay up your treasures in heaven”. And why would Christians, especially in those early years, think of much else? Many were martyred, but did so happily. They weren’t thinking like literal merchants. This is the luxury of a modern Christian, but it has nothing to do with the context.

And then later in the Nicene era, when Christianity was legalized, the Desert Fathers disliked how mundane things had become, and tried to live out their lives as the previous martyrs, and denied the world they lived in. So this is slightly the same thing.

As for your other post, I’m just going to brush off your reply as you brushed off mine, in saying it doesn’t address anything. I don’t even know what you want, honestly. If I’m not helping, I apologize. But I hope you figure it out, whatever it is. Take care 🙂
 
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