Heaven & Hell

[Cruciferi]

It’s thought that the angels before their Fall were in a heaven different from the one we’re familiar with. This heaven was slightly veiled and did not afford them the full beatific vision. For if they had seen it, there would have been no choice but for good. This separate Heaven was a way to test the angels without interference. It was, for all intents and purposes, a controlled test.

After the great celestial battle, the faithful angels entered into the current heaven and the fallen departed to Hell. However, was Hell created for them or had it already existed? According to Fr. Gabriele Amorth, one demon stated that God didn’t create Hell. Instead, it said, “he had not even thought about it”. However, we know that the Angels cannot create new realms and dimensions without God having thought or allowed it. Therefore, Hell’s creation could be older than the angles. Thus, the belief God had never conceived it. I believe that hell encompasses all of God’s fallen creatures much like Heaven contains all the creatures that love him. Therefore, Hell must contain other creatures that were much like Lucifer. These creatures are possibly older and were created long before he came into existence.

However, I believe both the saved and the damned are being kept separate from the rest of creation until after the judgment. Once we’re sorted, then we’ll be united.

I’m only basing this theory off the known fact of the New Heavens and New Earth. Although, not stated clearly, the Bible does speak about the damned being thrown, after the judgment, into a fiery river. I believe Hell will also be somewhat re-created too. In short, I believe Heaven and Hell are both much larger than previously thought. Also, they hold many more creatures than we suspect.

What do you think?

1. Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet?
2. Could Hell be even older than the Angels?
3. Could there be other creatures, separate from us, who fulfill roles similar to our
   angels but for different creatures?
4. Could there be many creatures like Lucifer who fell and were banished to Hell?

 

[CEM5]

What do you think?

1. Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet?
2. Could Hell be even older than the Angels?
3. Could there be other creatures, separate from us, who fulfill roles similar to our
   angels but for different creatures?
4. Could there be many creatures like Lucifer who fell and were banished to Hell?

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. Yes - It is stated in the Bible that 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven, where now they seek the destruction of all souls.

Thanks,
CEM

 

[PietroPaolo]

What do you think?

1. Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet?
2. Could Hell be even older than the Angels?
3. Could there be other creatures, separate from us, who fulfill roles similar to our
   angels but for different creatures?
4. Could there be many creatures like Lucifer who fell and were banished to Hell?

1. Define “we.” We, as in you and I, are not experiencing Heaven yet. We hope to one day.
2. Dante thought so. (See Canto III of Inferno wherein he writes, "Before (Hell) there were no created things.) I concur with Dante.
3. No. Angels are simply immaterial spirits that do God’s will. What would these “similar to angels” be? If they are immaterial spirits that do God’s will for other creatures, then they are angels. If they are material creatures, they are animals. If they are both, they are people.
4. Yes. Many angels fell with Lucifer and many people have fallen with him since.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

1.Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet?
2.Could Hell be even older than the Angels?
3.Could there be other creatures, separate from us, who fulfill roles similar to our
angels but for different creatures?
4.Could there be many creatures like Lucifer who fell and were banished to Hell?

1. No, not us on earth. Until we experience the beatific vision all our experiences of God as if through a veil.
2. Only if there was some other kind of creature created before the angels that also rebelled. Hell, especially when we are discussing its relation to pure spirits, is not so much a physical place as a state of rejecting God and being deprived of the Beatific Vision. Such a state did not exist until at least one creature entered into it.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

1. Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet?
2. Could Hell be even older than the Angels?
3. Could there be other creatures, separate from us, who fulfill roles similar to our
   angels but for different creatures?
4. Could there be many creatures like Lucifer who fell and were banished to Hell?

1. No, not us on earth. Until we experience the Beatific Vision all our experiences of God as if through a veil.
2. Only if there was some other kind of creature created before the angels that also rebelled. Hell, especially when we are discussing its relation to pure spirits, is not so much a physical place as a state of rejecting God and being deprived of the Beatific Vision. Such a state did not exist until at least one creature entered into it.
3. I suppose so. We know little or nothing about rational creatures other than men and angels, but that does not mean they do not exist.
4. Yes indeed, Hell is presumably full of multitudes of men and angels. Or do you mean someone who rebelled apparently entirely on his own, with no influence from anyone who rebelled prior to him? In that sense of original rebellion without anyone to tempt him towards it Satan might be unique for all we know.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

1. Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet

There was a heresy in the 14th c. which stated that the souls of the faithful departed do not experience the Beatific Vision until the Last Judgment. The true doctrine was defined by Pope Benedict XII in 1336, in the encyclical Benedictus Deus. In short, the faithful departed enjoy the Beatific Vision either immediately after death, or immediately after purgatory.

 

[zro_x]

It’s thought that the angels before their Fall were in a heaven different from the one we’re familiar with. This heaven was slightly veiled and did not afford them the full beatific vision. For if they had seen it, there would have been no choice but for good. This separate Heaven was a way to test the angels without interference. It was, for all intents and purposes, a controlled test.

After the great celestial battle, the faithful angels entered into the current heaven and the fallen departed to Hell. However, was Hell created for them or had it already existed? According to Fr. Gabriele Amorth, one demon stated that God didn’t create Hell. Instead, it said, “he had not even thought about it”. However, we know that the Angels cannot create new realms and dimensions without God having thought or allowed it. Therefore, Hell’s creation could be older than the angles. Thus, the belief God had never conceived it. I believe that hell encompasses all of God’s fallen creatures much like Heaven contains all the creatures that love him. Therefore, Hell must contain other creatures that were much like Lucifer. These creatures are possibly older and were created long before he came into existence.

However, I believe both the saved and the damned are being kept separate from the rest of creation until after the judgment. Once we’re sorted, then we’ll be united.

I’m only basing this theory off the known fact of the New Heavens and New Earth. Although, not stated clearly, the Bible does speak about the damned being thrown, after the judgment, into a fiery river. I believe Hell will also be somewhat re-created too. In short, I believe Heaven and Hell are both much larger than previously thought. Also, they hold many more creatures than we suspect.

What do you think?

1. Could we not be experiencing Heaven in its totality yet?

By “we” I assume you mean all the human beings who have already died in a state of grace. And they are not experiencing heaven in its totality, though they are experiencing the beatific vision. Currently, heaven is a strictly spiritual state. When the new heaven is formed, it will be both spiritual and physical.

1. Could Hell be even older than the Angels?

Pushing the age of hell back further does not help solve the problem of where hell originally came from. Are you proposing some other evil being, more powerful than Satan, with the power to create a realm like Hell? or perhaps that Hell has simply always existed? If not, it is difficult to see the need for some rebellioius pre-angelic creature to somehow bring about hell before the angels came along, as this creature would be in the same position as Satan himself.

1. Could there be other creatures, separate from us, who fulfill roles similar to our
   angels but for different creatures?

It is possible, but as far as I can tell, there is no reason to believe in them. Besides, unless they effect our spiritual lives in some way, our knowledge of them would serve no practical use.

1. Could there be many creatures like Lucifer who fell and were banished to Hell?

As others have mentioned, there are such creatures, but they are angels themselves. If you are speaking of some sort of completely different entity, then my answer is the same as the answer I gave for the last question.

 

[kentmayeux]

Hell had to exist before God’s seven days of creation because immediately after the creation of Adam and Eve, Satan appeared in the form of a serpent. God created Hell for the rebellious angels. The questions becomes when were the angels created?

 

[Cruciferi]

I believe in our Universe we have Man, Angels, Demons, and God. God is constant regardless of where your are; however humankind and angels are not constant. They are made specifically for this Universe.

Scientists believe there are countless separate and distinct universes that currently exist. I hypothesize that these separate universes contain creatures that fulfill roles similar to angels. They will guard and protect their charges. Which since this is a totally separate created universe, does not have to be similar to us at all. Likewise, creatures in other created universes must have free will as well. Therefore, there are many fallen creatures there too.

It is likely that God created many creatures in addition to us and the angels. However, each creature was given a separate closed universe to inhabit. Within these universes, you would have fallen creatures and saved creatures. Thus, Hell could have been created before our angels existed. That is to say, it was made for another creature pre-dating Lucifer in another universe entirely.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . This heaven was slightly veiled and did not afford them the full beatific vision. For if they had seen it, there would have been no choice but for good . . .

The Beatific Vision as I understand it, is not a prize but the result of one’s choices; it was created through the Angels’ giving themselves to God, to Love, just as Hell was created in their denying Him.