Heaven NOT a place, but a state?

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On this website it claims that the Pope said that Heaven and Hell aren’t places, but *states *of the soul. How could this be possible?
The Bible says Heaven is a “kingdom”, and in the book “Travel Guide to Heaven” it enthusiastically points out that Heaven is a place (and state). What’s going on here?
 
PMV said:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Heaven

On this website it claims that the Pope said that Heaven and Hell aren’t places, but *states *of the soul. How could this be possible?
The Bible says Heaven is a “kingdom”, and in the book “Travel Guide to Heaven” it enthusiastically points out that Heaven is a place (and state). What’s going on here?
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A Physical place is bound by space and time. It is infact defined by the space it occupies. Our souls at the moment of our death are no longer bound by space or time. Our glorified bodies when re-united to our souls at the end of time also will not exist in space and time.
 
Someone should’ve told Jesus that heaven is not a place…

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. And if I go and PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to THE PLACE where I am going.” John 14 1-4
 
**Heaven

The Name of Heaven Heaven (Anglo-Saxon heofon, O.S. hevan and himil, originally himin) corresponds to the Gothic himin-s. Both heaven and himil are formed from himin by a regular change of consonants: heaven, by changing m before n into v; and himil, by changing n of the unaccented ending into l. Some derive heaven from the root ham, “to cover” (cf. the Gothic ham-ôn and the German Hem-d). According to this derivation heaven would be conceived as the roof of the world. Others trace a connection between himin (heaven) and home; according to this view, which seems to be the more probable, heaven would be the abode of the Godhead. The Latin coelum (koilon, a vault) is derived by many from the root of celare “to cover, to conceal” (coelum, “ceiling” “roof of the world”). Others, however think it is connected with the Germanic himin. The Greek ouranos is probably derived from the root var, which also connotes the idea of covering. The Hebrew name for heaven is thought to be derived from a word meaning “on high”; accordingly, heaven would designate the upper region of the world

The Location of Heaven

Where is heaven, the dwelling of God and the blessed?

Some are of opinion that heaven is everywhere, as God is everywhere. According to this view the blessed can move about freely in every part of the universe, and still remain with God and see everywhere. Everywhere, too, they remain with Christ (in His sacred Humanity) and with the saints and the angels. For, according to the advocates of this opinion, the spatial distances of this world must no longer impede the mutual intercourse of blessed. In general, however, theologians deem more appropriate that there should be a special and glorious abode, in which the blessed have their peculiar home and where they usually abide, even though they be free to go about in this world. For the surroundings in the midst of which the blessed have their dwelling must be in accordance with their happy state; and the internal union of charity which joins them in affection must find its outward expression in community of habitation. At the end of the world, the earth together with the celestial bodies will be gloriously transformed into a part of the dwelling-place of the blessed (Apoc., xxi). Hence there seems to be no sufficient reason for attributing a metaphorical sense to those numerous utterances of the Bible which suggest a definite dwelling-place of the blessed. Theologians, therefore, generally hold that the heaven of the blessed is a special place with definite limits. Naturally, this place is held to exist, not within the earth, but, in accordance with the expressions of Scripture, without and beyond its limits. All further details regarding its locality are quite uncertain. The Church has decided nothing on this subject.

**
 
III. SUPERNATURAL CHARACTER OF HEAVEN AND THE BEATIFIC VISION

(1) In heaven the just will see God by direct intuition, clearly and distinctly. Here on earth we have no immediate perception of God; we see Him but indirectly in the mirror of creation. We get our first and direct knowledge from creatures, and then, by reasoning from these, we ascend to a knowledge of God according to the imperfect likeness which creatures bear to their Creator. But in doing so we proceed to a large extent by way of negation, i.e., by removing from the Divine Being the imperfections proper to creatures. In heaven, however, no creature will stand between God and the soul. He himself will be the immediate object of its vision. Scripture and theology tell us that the blessed see God face to face. And because this vision is immediate and direct, it is also exceedingly clear and distinct. Ontologists assert that we perceive God directly in this life, though our knowledge of Him is vague and obscure; but a vision of the Divine Essence, immediate yet vague and obscure, implies a contradiction. The blessed see God, not merely according to the measure of His likeness imperfectly reflected in creation, but they see Him as He is, after the manner of His own Being. That the blessed see God is a dogma of faith, expressly defined by Benedict XII (1336): We define that the souls of all the saints in heaven have seen and do see the Divine Essence by direct intuition and face to face visione intuitivâ et etiam faciali], in such wise tbat nothing created intervenes as an object of vision, but the Divine Essence presents itself to their immediate gaze, unveiled, clearly and openly; moreover, that in this vision they enjoy the Divine Essence, and that, in virtue of this vision and this enjoyment, they are truly blessed and possess eternal life and eternal rest" (Denzinger, Enchiridion, ed. 10, n. 530–old edition, n, 456; cf. nn. 693, 1084, 1458 old, nn. 588, 868).🙂
 
Br. Rich SFO:
A Physical place is bound by space and time. It is infact defined by the space it occupies. Our souls at the moment of our death are no longer bound by space or time. Our glorified bodies when re-united to our souls at the end of time also will not exist in space and time.
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I disagree. Since heaven will one day be physical it will have to be a place.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
How can a relationship with God be a place? There will be a time when everyone in the universe as we know it, aside from those in Hell, will share in the beatific vision, but that doesn’t make Heaven a place, it just means that every place will be Heaven.
 
Heaven consists primarily in the Beatific Vision, which is a union with God. After the general resurrection and last judgment, I guess you could say that heaven is both a state and a place, since our bodies (though glorified) will probably still take up space. They will not be limited by space, however, moving at will through time and space, as Jesus did after His resurrection.
 
Well I for one am looking forward to the “streets of gold.”
 
Actually it could well be both. We are told in the scriptures that after the second coming of Christ, all old things will be done away with. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. I think the entire universe will be transformed so that it is all heaven. Therefore heaven will be both a place (everywhere) and a state of being (in perfect and intimate communion with God).
Our perfected, glorified bodies will be both physical and spiritual, so I am looking forward to a perfected creation to dwell in.

At present, when no one is yet resurrected and glorified except Jesus, the saved have no need of a physical heaven. So it is indeed a state of the soul - for now.

Hell, on the other hand, would be outside of this new creation - a place of hopeless misery completely divorced from the presence of God and His majesty.

Just my impression from the bible.
Paul
 
Br. Rich SFO:
A Physical place is bound by space and time. It is infact defined by the space it occupies. Our souls at the moment of our death are no longer bound by space or time. Our glorified bodies when re-united to our souls at the end of time also will not exist in space and time.
Click to expand...
I may be mistaken, but I find your last sentence problematic, that at the end of time, our glorified bodies would exist outside of space and time. While I agree that our souls at death are not bound by space or time, it seems it isn’t the case for a glorified body. But isn’t it precisely the nature of a body, in contrast to pure substances[like spirits], that it assume physical characteristics, that is dimensionality?

If souls and glorified bodies don’t exist in space and time, then what is the difference between them?

I am inclined toward the view, that at the end of time, heaven would be both a place and a state.

Gerry 🙂
 
At the end of time there will a new heaven and a new earth and our bodies and souls will be reunited. In the end heaven and hell will be real places but since bodies are not yet united with souls the existence of heaven and hell for those currently dead will be only states right now. But this won’t always be the case and purgatory will also cease to exist at the end of time. Many theologians now think purgatory is merely a state so that makes sense along this line of thinking.

Here is the theology spirits can exists in states but bodies exist in places thus at the end of times when all spirits are united with our bodies they must exist in places. Thus the new heaven and a new hell.
 
If heaven is only a state not a place, please tell me where the physical bodies of Elijah, Enoch, Mary and Jesus currently are. Are their bodies in a place or in a state?

Difficult to understand these things when coming to Catholicism straight from Dake’s Study Notes (planet heaven…)

Blessings

Asteroid
 
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JimG:
Heaven consists primarily in the Beatific Vision, which is a union with God. After the general resurrection and last judgment, I guess you could say that heaven is both a state and a place, since our bodies (though glorified) will probably still take up space. They will not be limited by space, however, moving at will through time and space, as Jesus did after His resurrection.
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Hi JimG
And before His resurrection. Remember He got into the boat and it was there.
The laws in the kingdom of heaven are different to the laws of earth. Here we have gravity etc. In the kingdom of heaven people can be healed by faith, mountains can be move etc. Faith is the power in God’s kingdom.
Remember Faith comes in degrees.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
Interesting responses. So we could say that Heaven IS a place, but that it’s in a different dimension, without the barriers of space and time?
 
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edwinG:
Hi JimG
And before His resurrection. Remember He got into the boat and it was there.
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You are right that Jesus could do miraculous things before his resurrection. (And I note also the transfiguration.) After his resurrection, however, his glorified body seemed seemed qualitatively different.

To sum up, I believe that Heaven is both a state and a place. We will, no doubt, have the Universe at our disposal, while being united with God in the Beatific Vision.
 
Heaven is certainly a state. Is it a place? Well, as has been established, our bodies will exist there, so there will have to be something at least analogous to three-dimensional space. However, the word “place” implies a bounded area of three-dimensional space. I’m not so sure that’s what Heaven will be, because, as has been said, I think Heaven will be “everywhere.” So essentially the answer to the question, “is Heaven a place?” will be the same as whatever answer the individual wants to give to, “is ‘everywhere’ a place?”

With one caveat-- you have to decide whether you think Hell is going to be a physical place, or just a state. If Hell is a spatially-bounded “place,” then Heaven has to be bounded also, because otherwise you’d have the absurdity of Heaven and Hell coexisting in the same space. Although maybe even this would be possible if the ‘glorified bodies’ in Heaven were made of some different kind of matter-- any of you physics whizzes care to weigh in?

However, up till now we’ve been neglecting the dimension of time. My best understanding of space is that, if you don’t have time, nothing in space can ever move or change. In fact, doesn’t the word “static” (unchanging) come from the same root as the word “state?” So even if you have physical space, if there’s no time, you could accurately describe the situation as a “state.”

Now, I know that Heaven will be eternal in the sense that our spiritual dispositions won’t change, but does this mean that our bodies won’t be able to move? Some posters have advanced the idea of “transcending time and space.” But how is this different from being everywhere at the same time? In which case, what does it mean to have a body, glorified or not?

I think that someting like time-- not time per se, but something similar-- will exist even in Heaven. There are two reasons for this: first, what I have already discussed about the material nature of our bodies. Second, because I believe that God’s beauty is infinite (and perhaps the beauty of each human soul is too, on a lesser order), while the capacity of even a heavenly soul to observe and comprehend God and other souls is finite. Thus, if we are truly to “know as we are known,” we will need to be able to focus on different aspects of God’s glory at different, er, times.

So-- it’s my belief that Heaven is spatial and temporal in some transcendent, eternal sense, but unbounded in “time” and not necessarily bounded in “space”, so whether or not it qualifies as a “place” is a little fuzzy, due primarily to the ambiguity of the word “place.”
 
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asteroid:
If heaven is only a state not a place, please tell me where the physical bodies of Elijah, Enoch, Mary and Jesus currently are. Are their bodies in a place or in a state?

Difficult to understand these things when coming to Catholicism straight from Dake’s Study Notes (planet heaven…)

Blessings

Asteroid
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Well said.

In addition, Jesus’ glorified body after the Resurrection seems to have had dimensions, and Jesus Himself reminded His surprised disciples that He is not a mere spirit, for a spirit has neither flesh nor bones, although I do affirm that His glorified body also possessed characteristics which are far beyond those of ordinary human bodies, such as immortality, incorruptibility, and the ability to pass through solid matter.

Gerry 🙂
 
The greatest image or icon of heaven is the Eucharist: both material and spiritual reality; both place and state.

But the Eucharist is more than just an image of heaven/the beatific vision. I believe that the more we understand the reality of the Eucharist, the more we understand what that final unity, when man will become God (according to the sense of the Fathers), will be: an many in unity.

Thought experiment: imagine one Eucharistic host speaking to another…what would “it” say? What pronouns would “it” use for itself (I? You? Me? We?)?
 
I have been reading Catholic Answers for aprox. 2 months.

Before I started to read this forum I was sure about everything Catholic. I had very few unanswered questions.

But now with so many “opinions”, references and quotes I am sometimes finding myself at a loss. You need to sift through the “I think so”, the “in my opinion” and the nonCatholic insurgent’s messages.
 
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