Hell

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seeker63

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Some Protestants feel that Catholics use Confession as a “Get Out of Jail Free” card, and can sin and sin and sin, go confess, then go out and do the same sin again with impunity. I know that’s not the way Confession has been designed.

But as someone in the process of converting, I admit the Catholic vision of hell is a lot more disturbing than the Protestant one. Many Portestants believe in “eternal security”—“Once saved, always saved”–that once Christ has saved you nothing can snatch you from His hand.

On the other hand, it seems that in the Catholic view of things it’s a lot easier to wind up in Hell: skip a Mass–you go to Hell, masturbate–you go to Hell, vote for a pro-abortion politician–you go to Hell. It’s very grim and depressing. As I’ve said elsewhere it produces a feeling of heaviness in me, a feeling of constant dread, like a perpetual tax audit.

I know God is a god of love *and *justice, but in this area I can see the latter more than the former.

Obviously the simplistic answer to this is “Don’t sin,” but I know I’ll not be free of my sin nature while on this earth.

What do any of you suggest? Most of the Church brings me contentment, but this aspect causes worry and constant dread. What can I do about this?
 
I would begin with the Catechism for clarity on an issue like this.

My personal take: The Love and Judgment of God are one.

Back in the middle ages, when I was a youth, I feared that I had committed the “unpardonable sin.” Finally, I realized that if I had committed the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit, it would be better to be condemned by God, who IS God, who is true, righteous and just, than to go through life holding his righteousness against him. From that moment I was at peace. (And, of course, anyone worried about “unpardonable sin” has not committed it because he is still turning toward God.)

When I told my spiritual director about this insight of my distant past, he replied: That was a very great grace.

Keep your heart in love for Christ, your focus on his grace, and Hell takes care of itself! The Devil LOVES to drive people nuts with the kind of thing you bring up.
 
This is something very worth thinking about. You know, there is another way to look at this: if God calls us to Him and to the Church, and if we are chosen by Him to be His people, then those who are truly His, despite their sinful natures, will ultimately be in a state of grace at the time of their death since what God wills must come to pass. It sounds like the “once saved, always saved” idea if you look at it closely, because if you are God’s, your own sin cannot take you from Him and ultimately will not, though you may struggle hourly towards holiness and fail many times; the time that counts, you will not. Be of good cheer and trust in God. He holds you in His hand and will not let you fall.
 
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Cherub:
This is something very worth thinking about. You know, there is another way to look at this: if God calls us to Him and to the Church, and if we are chosen by Him to be His people, then those who are truly His, despite their sinful natures, will ultimately be in a state of grace at the time of their death since what God wills must come to pass. It sounds like the “once saved, always saved” idea if you look at it closely, because if you are God’s, your own sin cannot take you from Him and ultimately will not, though you may struggle hourly towards holiness and fail many times; the time that counts, you will not. Be of good cheer and trust in God. He holds you in His hand and will not let you fall.
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I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that our sinfulness cannot remove us from God’s presence? If it is than that is contrary to Church teaching and scripture.

Free will is a beautiful gift. Only through free will is love truly authentic. We can of our own free will either make the decisions to love God or reject Him. We also make the decisions as to live morally or immorally. You can make the decision to to remove yourself from Him. However, you can also make the decision to strive as hard as possible to live the life you know you are being called by Christ to live.

Does that mean we have to be perfect and never sin? Obviously not, since that is impossible. We are called to strive for holiness. Only mortal sin separates us from God’s grace. However, you can not deny that it exists. Mortal sin does cause a sinner to lose sanctifying grace and puts the soul in eternal jeopardy. That is why frequent confession is so important.

As far as the original question…I guess there are a couple of ways of looking at it. First, simply because you deny the existance of something does not mean that it does not exist. For example, when little children cover their eyes thinking that you can’t see them, when you can. Thus, when Protestants profess “once saved, always saved,” one has to immediately wonder why they cover their eyes to so many scripture passages that state the contrary, most especially the warning to work out salvation in fear and trembling. It is hard to reconcile adultery, murder, etc. with “once saved, always saved” since those demonstrate a turning from God and a hardness of heart.

Second, confession does not mean that you may sin as much as you want and then confess and all is clear. It requires true repentence, a willingness to be reconciled, and a sincere desire to not commit the sin again. (Not that you won’t do it again, just that you really don’t want to do it again.) All sins may be forgiven, even the most heinous. We must however, have true contrition, not just an emotional whim.

Most importantly, we must trust in the mercy of God. Love Him with your whole heart, soul, being and pray often. Receive the sacraments as often as possible. The more you receive, the more you become aware of what a wretched sinner you are. The more you are aware of you sinfulness, the more you can be like the wise maidens in today’s gospel. (Matt 25:1-13) Today’s gospel really is addressing this…are you keeping watch and your lanterns full of oil or are you foolish and let the oil burn out. The virtue of charity has to illuminate all our acts, prayer must be the center of our lives, and we must be strong and endure against temptation. We must love. Perfect, no. Striving, yes. And when we commit mortal sin, repent and go to confession.

Remember, God loved us so much to become human and redeem us. He knows our hearts and our will as well as our weakness. That is why prayer and the sacraments are so important. They are the channels of grace that strengthen us.

God bless you on your journey. And have Hope, not despair. “Be not afraid, I go before you always.” And “Trust in Me.” What beautiful hope!!!
 
Yes, what I am saying is that God’s love and mercy are what we must put our trust in. What He wills will be. We do make our choices, to sin or not to sin, and we are responsible for them, and we can be lost to God in our sin-- but if we are loving God and seeking Him truly, he will remain close to us and will save us in our hour of need. Striving is what we must do, and trust in our Lord who loves us. This requires bravery and desire.
 
This is a very difficult struggle. I, too, sometimes worry about hell. But this is also exactly what keeps me struggling to become a better person and closer to God. I think the trick is not to become obsessive about it, because that is not having hope in God. The good thing about being a Catholic, is that we DO have confession for when we fall short. Which we All do!! Do not forget about Purgatory. We will have this to cleanse us of our earthly sins before going to heaven. It is near impossible for earthly humans to be ready to face our creator immediately after death. This is probably extremely rare. Rest assured that God knows your heart and that as long as you do your best every day to avoid sin, God will have mercy on your soul and you will eventually rest in Him. Pray about this and I bet that the Holy Spirit will answer your cries and send peace your way. Keep the lamp burning and shining on the path to God. He will never abandon you so long as you invite Him into your life. Keep on keeping on!! God Bless you on your journey!
 
What do any of you suggest? Most of the Church brings me contentment, but this aspect causes worry and constant dread. What can I do about this?
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I say embrace it. But don’t dwell on it. Pray for the grace to achieve the joy that comes with obedience and faithfulness. Use this worry and dread as a tool to keep you on the road to holiness.

I’ve been reading the Philokalia, a collection of writings by Eastern Saints about the spiritual journey. Their main points include the need to conquer our passions, desires of the flesh, in order to grow spiritually. At the beginning of this journey most of us are motivated by the fear of punishment (the first aspect of “fear of the Lord”). It is only after a fair amount of progress that are truely motivated to holiness by the second aspect of “fear of the Lord”, that of not offending the one who is Love.

May God continue to bless your effort.
 
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davidv:
I say embrace it. But don’t dwell on it. Pray for the grace to achieve the joy that comes with obedience and faithfulness. Use this worry and dread as a tool to keep you on the road to holiness.

I’ve been reading the Philokalia, a collection of writings by Eastern Saints about the spiritual journey. Their main points include the need to conquer our passions, desires of the flesh, in order to grow spiritually. At the beginning of this journey most of us are motivated by the fear of punishment (the first aspect of “fear of the Lord”). It is only after a fair amount of progress that are truely motivated to holiness by the second aspect of “fear of the Lord”, that of not offending the one who is Love.

May God continue to bless your effort.
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This is fascinating. I think I may look for this book. Great post!! 👍
 
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seeker63:
But as someone in the process of converting, I admit the Catholic vision of hell is a lot more disturbing than the Protestant one.

I know God is a god of love *and *justice, but in this area I can see the latter more than the former.

What do any of you suggest? Most of the Church brings me contentment, but this aspect causes worry and constant dread. What can I do about this?
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As someone who is in the process of converting, you have yet to receive all the wonderful gifts that God has to offer. When you are Confirmed you receive the Gifts of The Holy Ghost and amoung them is the Gift of Counsel

The Gift of Counsel - A person possessing the virtue of hope has the habit of putting all his confidence in God, trusting that His might and power will always sustain him. The gift of counsel supports hope and adds to our confidence by enlightening us as to the means of salvation and the obstacles to our spiritual progress. It warns us as to the deceit of Satan and urges us to seek divine guidance before acting in important matters. It helps reason to discern not only what is right and what is wrong, but it also points out the way of perfection – in the case of two things, both of which are good and right, it shows which is better, higher, and more pleasing to God. it goes even further; it moves and draws the heart to go beyond what is necessary in order to attain life’s purpose. hence, a vocation to the priesthood, to the religious life or to any other state in the work of the Spirit of Counsel.

Often a Christian has intuitions of the goodness or the badness, of the rightness or the wrongness of certain deeds, propositions, statements and the like, that seem unaccountable except as promptings of the holy angels or of the Holy Spirit of Counsel.

God Bless you on your quest for truth, do not worry so much about your obsession with Hell and Sin.

The perfect way to please God is to avoid sin because you love Him. The less than perfect way to please God is to avoid sin because you are afraid of hell - but do not be worry - it is a great start - you will eventually balance yourself out with pray and confidence!

I always say - if you are not smart enough to love God at least be smart enough to be afraid of hell!
 
You know what irritates me about protestants who say this (I’ve run into it many times myself) is that the ones I know of (especially the evangelicals) sin just as much as I do then say a prayer at the end of the day and whamo they’re saved and saved forever…then they tell me that I’m using confession as a get out of jail free card.

I point this out to them then tell them to look in the mirror.
 
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legeorge:
This is fascinating. I think I may look for this book. Great post!! 👍
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The philokalia is huge (4 vols) and in tiny print. (and great!)

For a quick intro I would recomend The Art of Prayer - An Orthodox Anthology ISBN 0-571-19165-7

Enjoy!
 
Okay, let’s say I lead a good Catholic life. I go to Mass all the time, Confession once a week, Eucharistic Adoration when I can, I give to charity, don’t use a condom or get involved in abortion, I don’t argue with the Powers That Be–everything is as it should be.

But one day I commit a mortal sin and before I can even think about feeling sorry about it or going to Confession I drop dead.

Do I go to hell?
 
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seeker63:
What do any of you suggest? Most of the Church brings me contentment, but this aspect causes worry and constant dread. What can I do about this?
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At the risk of sounding un-necessarily harsh, my advice is “get over it.” As Flannery O’Connor famously observed in a letter to one of her friends, “the truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” The truth is that we can separate ourselves from God, while by the same token, we can be reconciled to God by the ministry of the Church. As St. Paul said, you must “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). There is no sense in pretending that we have assurance of salvation when we do not. The Church is in the business of offering real hope, not pretty delusions. The best thing one can do is to grit one’s teeth and steel oneself to this truth.
 
Not everything that is said in this world is meant to bring comfort. Some claims are useful simply because they are true, quite regardless of the unsettling nature of that truth. A man being chased by a tiger might possibly be comforted by being told that the tiger has lost interest, but if this is not true, the comfort will be rather short-lived (as will the one comforted ;)).
 
You have to reflect and will to commit mortal sin, then be cousciously unremorseful. Personally, I don’t quite see how anyone can sin mortally then die fast enough that they don’t have time to think about it. Okay, you can conjure up lightning strikes, etc, but, really.

As for missing Mass, think of it this way. The Church with all its gifts is not all powerful. It has the means to help us to salvation, but we must cooperate. The rule about attending Sunday Mass is the Church’s message to us that it cannot save us without the Mass and the Eucharist. Also, if we consciously do not attend, aren’t we saying that WE do not care enough about our salvation? Why is this the Church’s fault?
 
I think Christians can agree–if we don’t get out of jail free, we aren’t getting out of jail at all.
 
"You have to reflect and will to commit mortal sin, then be cousciously unremorseful. Personally, I don’t quite see how anyone can sin mortally then die fast enough that they don’t have time to think about it. Okay, you can conjure up lightning strikes, etc, but, really.

“As for missing Mass, think of it this way. The Church with all its gifts is not all powerful. It has the means to help us to salvation, but we must cooperate. The rule about attending Sunday Mass is the Church’s message to us that it cannot save us without the Mass and the Eucharist. Also, if we consciously do not attend, aren’t we saying that WE do not care enough about our salvation? Why is this the Church’s fault?”

oldfogey—I wasn’t talking about willingly missing Mass. I was saying if you did as you should in most things, but had one strike would you be out? Personally I think my “radar” is good enough that I’d know I did wrong. I just hope I’d feel enough remorse fast enough. Either that or I’m gonna have to take a Priest with me wherever I go from now on. Wouldn’t God know my heart, but also that as a human I am prone to failure?
 
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seeker63:
Okay, let’s say I lead a good Catholic life. I go to Mass all the time, Confession once a week, Eucharistic Adoration when I can, I give to charity, don’t use a condom or get involved in abortion, I don’t argue with the Powers That Be–everything is as it should be.

But one day I commit a mortal sin and before I can even think about feeling sorry about it or going to Confession I drop dead.

Do I go to hell?
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I think that God, being outside of time, would know if you were honestly and sincerly going to go to confession the following week and confess that last sin and you would be forgiven.
 
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