Help a Feminist

[Polaris]

Ok I need help with this topic because it bothers me a lot and I cant find an acceptable resolution.
I know with in my heart that woman are equal to men. Yet the bible does not teach that in any form or way and the church just recently began to accept the idea of woman as equal to men (which confuses me again because of It not being able to go against the bible .) So how do I believe that the bible is without flaw and perfect when throughout the entire bible a woman is treated like a step up from an object. This can not be denied with readings such as Christ is the head of man but man is the head of a woman, a woman is the lesser vessle, or that her source of glory is her hair, that they can not teach, that they shoud remain silent, that they should just serve there husbands without question or a woman will be saved by childbearing.
A womans only value is her relation to her father, her husband or her son in the bible. She has no value outside of these relations which disgusts me on so many levels. Help a feminist. Explain this to me and dont say well they are equal but different. Equal means you are partners not that someone is in chage of you.

 

[deb1]

Ok I need help with this topic because it bothers me a lot and I cant find an acceptable resolution.
I know with in my heart that woman are equal to men no. Yet the bible does not teach that in any form or way and the church just recently began to accept the idea of woman as equal to men (which confuses me again because of It not being able to go against the bible .) So how do I believe that the bible is without flaw and perfect when throughout the entire bible a woman is treated like a step up from an object. This can not be denied with readings such as Christ is the head of man but man is the head of a woman, a woman is the lesser vessel, or that her source of glory is her hair, that they can not teach, that they should remain silent, that they should just serve there husbands without question or a woman will be saved by childbearing.
A woman’s only value is her relation to her father, her husband or her son in the bible. She has no value outside of these relations which disgusts me on so many levels. Help a feminist. Explain this to me and dint say well they are equal but different. Equal means you are partners not that someone is in chage of you.

My goodness, have you ever read about the women in the bible? None of them were weak, playthings. All biblical females-even the bad ones-were strong.

It is important to look at the cultures that surrounded the early Jewish people. Compared to those cultures, Jewish women were treated well. You really can’t apply the standards of today to the laws that were written so many centuries before.

Jesus had many prominent female followers. The first person at his tomb was a woman. That, in itself, was very unusual for the culture that He came from.

The New Testament does say that men and women are different, but it never claims that women are inferior to men.

 

[deb1]

Ok I need help with this topic because it bothers me a lot and I cant find an acceptable resolution.
I know with in my heart that woman are equal to men no. Yet the bible does not teach that in any form or way and the church just recently began to accept the idea of woman as equal to men (which confuses me again because of It not being able to go against the bible .) So how do I believe that the bible is without flaw and perfect when throughout the entire bible a woman is treated like a step up from an object. This can not be denied with readings such as Christ is the head of man but man is the head of a woman, a woman is the lesser vessle, or that her source of glory is her hair, that they can not teach, that they shoud remain silent, that they should just serve there husbands without question or a woman will be saved by childbearing.
A womans only value is her relation to her father, her husband or her son in the bible. She has no value outside of these relations which disgusts me on so many levels. Help a feminist. Explain this to me and dont say well they are equal but different. Equal means you are partners not that someone is in chage of you.

My goodness, have you ever read about the women in the bible? None of them were weak, playthings. All biblical females-even the bad ones-were strong.

It is important to look at the cultures that surronded the early Jewish people. Compared to those cultures, Jewish women were treated well. You really can’t apply the standards of today to the laws that were written today.

Jesus had many prominent female followers. The first person at his tomb was a woman. That, in itself, was very unusual considering the culture that He came from.

The New Testament does say that men and women are different, but it never claims that women are inferior to men.

 

[Maranatha]

In the bible the woman was created from the rib of the man. How can you be more equal then that?

 

[jmcrae]

It’s true that patriarchal attitudes (which I think are a consequence of the Fall) have been with us for a really long time, and are difficult to break free of, but when we read the Bible without our patriarchal lenses on, we actually see women with a lot of power and equality with men.

For example, Abraham tried having kids with Sarah’s slave and with other women (and he also kept trying to marry Sarah off to other more powerful men) - but guess what. Sarah was just as important as Abraham was, and the promise was not fulfilled until Sarah gave birth to Isaac. All those other kids, despite the fact that they were sons of Abraham lacked one very important thing - they were not the sons of Sarah. Only Isaac.

Human beings thought that Abraham was the only important one, but God considered Sarah to be just as important as Abraham. The promise could not be fulfilled until they had a child together.

You should also read the Book of Ruth and the Book of Judith - if you didn’t know any better, you’d think they’d both been written by radical feminists in the 1970s, but no - they were both inspired by God, millenia ago. Both of these books have been sitting there in the Bible all that time.

There are many other stories about women in the Bible - even Jesus, in His parables, often includes a story with female characters in it right next to a story with male characters in it. Watch for this when you’re reading through the Gospels.

 

[Polaris]

In the bible the woman was created from the rib of the man. How can you be more equal then that?

The bible does not seem to see it as equal or maybe I am miss understanding it.

1 Corinthians 11:8-10
For man is not from woman but woman from man.(Rib) For man was not created for woman but woman for man.

 

[deb1]

The bible does not seem to see it as equal or maybe I am miss understanding it.

1 Corinthians 11:8-10
For man is not from woman but woman from man.(Rib) For man was not created for woman but woman for man.

You have not read all the verses!
1 Corinthian 11:11-12
Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord. For just as woman came from the man, so man is born of woman, but all things are from God

 

[Polaris]

I read those radicle feminist books from the seventies and in no way do they reflect the books of Ruth and Judith. (Or I would be a die hard Catholic instead of a struggling one trying to understand.)

Ruth is not a good book to claim the equality of woman in the bible. A person had rights over her, she was property and acquired with a field. The great happiness of hers was having a son.

Judith a much better book, but still one of the main themes is that a “woman” was able to kill a “man” bringing great shame. She also used her body and guile to kill the man instead of an honest fight. However I do enjoy the respect the people showed her and her independence, very rare in the bible.

 

[jmcrae]

In any case, they do show that women are just as important to God’s plan as men are. King David could not have been born if not for Ruth. Judaism itself would have died out (along with all hope of a Messiah) if Judith had not acted.

Neither Ruth nor Judith were particularly “submissive” - they both had goals and accomplished their goals. I doubt if you met them in person you would consider them mousy little doormats.

 

[Eileen_T]

Polaris:

A womans only value is her relation to her father, her husband or her son in the bible. She has no value outside of these relations which disgusts me on so many levels.

We all see things differently when we read the Bible, what one person reads into a particular passage can be radically different to how another interprets it - one of the reasons non-Catholic Christians have so many different denominations.

I see strong as well as weak women throughout Scripture, and I see strong and weak men. I also see a culture which protected it’s women the best it could from male predators.

We live in a ‘civilised’ day and age where women are no longer the ‘property’ of fathers and husbands. We have sexual immorality, rape, men using women for pleasure without giving her and any reslting children the ‘protection’ of marriage.

That is what strikes me about what feminism has won for women today. Many of the early feminists had trauma in their childhood, often sexual molestation. Their anger against men was often a response to the betrayal they had expected from one who should have protected them.

Polaris:

 

[Polaris]

In any case, they do show that women are just as important to God’s plan as men are. King David could not have been born if not for Ruth. Judaism itself would have died out (along with all hope of a Messiah) if Judith had not acted.

One problem with that argument God can use anything he want to in his plan from a rock to the very nature that is opposed to him, evil. It speaks nothing of equality of what he uses. The bible does not see woman as equal to man. Also Im glad they are not “submissive doormats” but the bible does call wives to be submissive “doormats” to there husbands and fathers.

Also I wanted to say thatI agree with you and the earlier post that it is also a product of the time period when the bible is composed, which leads to another question how do we filter what is unchanging truth and what is cultural truth in the bible.

Once again, thanks again for the help and I apologize for being stubborn but I will question until I can get this straight in my head.

 

[FCEGM]

Ok I need help with this topic because it bothers me a lot and I cant find an acceptable resolution.
I know with in my heart that woman are equal to men. Yet the bible does not teach that in any form or way and the church just recently began to accept the idea of woman as equal to men (which confuses me again because of It not being able to go against the bible .) So how do I believe that the bible is without flaw and perfect when throughout the entire bible a woman is treated like a step up from an object. This can not be denied with readings such as Christ is the head of man but man is the head of a woman, a woman is the lesser vessle, or that her source of glory is her hair, that they can not teach, that they shoud remain silent, that they should just serve there husbands without question or a woman will be saved by childbearing.
A womans only value is her relation to her father, her husband or her son in the bible. She has no value outside of these relations which disgusts me on so many levels. Help a feminist. Explain this to me and dont say well they are equal but different. Equal means you are partners not that someone is in chage of you.

You might find these articles by Professor Alice Von Hildebrand to be of interest and helpful:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6668

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6565

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6017

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6026

speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=4411&t=The+secular+war+on+the+supernatural

This last is an interview with her:

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=530

 

[jmcrae]

Also I wanted to say thatI agree with you and the earlier post that it is also a product of the time period when the bible is composed, which leads to another question how do we filter what is unchanging truth and what is cultural truth in the bible.

By reading the whole thing, and not being limited to the “popular verses.” The popular verses are about men, yes - but the Bible itself is “equal opportunity.” Yes, we don’t quote those verses very often, but they are there. God was thinking of us, even though the culture was not.

Once again, thanks again for the help and I apologize for being stubborn but I will question until I can get this straight in my head.

I understand. These things do need to be wrestled with - you can’t make progress if you don’t tackle these things in a straightforward way. But do keep an open mind to be able to be surprised. Don’t get locked in by your own preconceptions or by someone else’s idea of what the Bible should have meant or should have said.

Proverbs 31 is a good place to start when figuring out the passages about wives. Here we have a woman who runs her own business out of her home, and raises her children to be very strong, who obviously stands up for herself and for what she believes to be right - without ever mistaking herself for a man, or trying to “be a man” - she is both successful, and feminine; she doesn’t put on some kind of a butch act to impress “the guys” - but again, she is no doormat.

I don’t think St. Paul required women to be doormats either - I don’t think he meant by “submission” what that word has taken on over time. I think he meant, be a partner. Don’t go off and do your own thing, but remember that you are in a partnership with your husband. Get his opinion on things, and listen to it respectfully - not instead of having your own ideas, but rather, instead of going off and doing your own thing regardless of the consequences to him.

St. Paul is equally tough on the men - women have trouble listening to men, and men have trouble loving their wives, so Paul says to them, “Love your wife like Christ loves the Church - give your very life for her.”

Now, is that a man whose opinion you could respect? Someone who would give his life for you?

Because that’s what St. Paul is calling for. He doesn’t expect women to respect the opinions of selfish, egocentric men, or men who don’t care about the consequences of their choices to us, who would hurt us either on purpose or through forgetful negligence.

He is, rather, expecting us to be respectful of the opinions of men who would give everything - even die for us.

 

[Denise_Shae]

I think the best example is the Blessed Mother.

John 2:1 And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

Notice that after Jesus said, “Woman, what is that to me and to thee”?, she wasn’t submissive about it.
In fact, without another word to her Son, she went and told the waiters to do whatever He says.

I love that passage.

God Bless!

 

[gardenswithkids]

One problem with that argument God can use anything he want to in his plan…

God can use anything in He wants, and what He used was a humble woman named Mary. So often feminists claim that the Catholic Church doesn’t value women. Have you looked up to see her statue on pedestals in every Catholic Church? On the one hand Protestants complain Catholics “worship” Mary, treating her like a goddess; on the other hand feminists think the Catholic Church treat women like inferior objects. We do neither.

…but the bible does call wives to be submissive “doormats” to there husbands and fathers.

It may say submissive, but it says nothing about doormats. It also tells men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.

which leads to another question how do we filter what is unchanging truth and what is cultural truth in the bible.

I don’t know entirely. But how do you filter the truth of the Bible from the “cultural truths” you’ve learned? I don’t mean that to sound snotty, but there is a significant difference between men and women. The ability to carry a child is something wonderful that men can not do. Men and women aren’t the same.

 

[LindaS]

The Scripture, as important as it is, is only one part of the Truth. The other parts are Tradition and Magesterium, the teaching authority of the Church. It is the responsibility of the Church to correctly interpret, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meanings found in Scripture. So it’s not just what Scripture says, and it is not necessarily meant to be taken literally, but how the Church interprets what Scripture says. What does the Church say about the role of women?

Peace,
Linda