HELP !....again

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Katie1723

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:confused: Can someone explain to me where in the Bible it says Saturday is the Sabbath? I know we celebrate Sunday in correlation with Christ’s resurrection, but my partner insists that the Bible says Saturday is the Sabbath and “we” changed it. Yep, you guessed it, he is SDA. And also, he says that the Bible says the Catholic church is going to “take over the world” and force Sunday Sabbath, something about the 7 Hills of Rome being the Vatican and a “Lady dressed in red and holding a gold cup”. I don’t understand. On a more positive side, he has accompanied me to Mass the past few weekends.
Any help is much appreciated.
Kathy
 
The Sabbath was always the 7th day, or the last day of the week, which is Saturday. Your friend is right that the Catholic Church in the very very begining made the day of worship for all Christians Sunday in observance of Christs Resurrection. You and your friend can actually agree on that part. What you will not agree on is whether or not the Church has the authority to do such a thing.

Most Protestants would deny that the Catholic Church changed the day of worship because to do so they would be admitting that they follow the Tradition of the Catholic Church by worshipping on Sunday instead of Saturday. If the Bible is the sole rule of faith as most Protestants claim then they should all be worshipping on Saturday just as the SDA. Of course we would disagree that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, and the fact that almost every Christian Church worships on Sunday gives testimony to the fact that Tradition is also binding on the faithful Christian.
 
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martino:
The Sabbath was always the 7th day, or the last day of the week, which is Saturday. Your friend is right that the Catholic Church in the very very begining made the day of worship for all Christians Sunday in observance of Christs Resurrection. You and your friend can actually agree on that part. What you will not agree on is whether or not the Church has the authority to do such a thing.

Most Protestants would deny that the Catholic Church changed the day of worship because to do so they would be admitting that they follow the Tradition of the Catholic Church by worshipping on Sunday instead of Saturday. If the Bible is the sole rule of faith as most Protestants claim then they should all be worshipping on Saturday just as the SDA. Of course we would disagree that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, and the fact that almost every Christian Church worships on Sunday gives testimony to the fact that Tradition is also binding on the faithful Christian.
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👍 :clapping: :dancing:

One of the best explanations I’ve seen. Can I borrow it?
 
Kathy -
There is much evidence that the early church came together and worshipped on Sunday. This is from Justin Martyr’s “Apology”, section 67. He lived from about the year 100 to 165.

“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.”

Notice also the taking of Communion, reading of the gospels, prayers, etc. Hope this helps.
 
Hi,
I agree with your friend. As you can see, the best explanation for changing the sabbath to SUN-day is to commemerate the resurrection of Christ. Unfortunately, Christ did not rise on the first day of the week.
Have a Nice Day,

Trav
 
Katie1723 said:
:confused: Can someone explain to me where in the Bible it says Saturday is the Sabbath? I know we celebrate Sunday in correlation with Christ’s resurrection, but my partner insists that the Bible says Saturday is the Sabbath and “we” changed it. Yep, you guessed it, he is SDA. And also, he says that the Bible says the Catholic church is going to “take over the world” and force Sunday Sabbath, something about the 7 Hills of Rome being the Vatican and a “Lady dressed in red and holding a gold cup”. I don’t understand. On a more positive side, he has accompanied me to Mass the past few weekends.
Any help is much appreciated.
Kathy
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Katie… I cannot now, but will do a bit of an explanation of the whole whore of babylon thing that he is quoting with the 7 hills… It has nothing to do with the Vatican or the Catholic church. Scripture tells us that it’s self!

Brandon
 
It is interesting to note that no-one really figured all this out until about 150 or so years ago. Isn’t the Vatican on one hill, so its not on seven only one, across the Tiber is the 7 hills of Rome. So it couldn’t be talking about the Vatican, other cities are known for being built on 7 hills.
As is many other recent churches, I am not sure how much I would believe in a church that a person founded. I would ask who founded their church.
I can claim that Jesus Christ founded my Church 2000 years ago, and show that not even the gates of hell will prevail against it. As someone said in an earlier post a good thing to do is ask if they believe their church is similar to the faith the early fathers had. They should be able to agree on what early Church Councils taught and what early Church Fathers believed, in context.
 
I just wondered if you’d considered going to Saturday Mass with them just to show that it doesn’t have to be such a big issue. Also, point out that the Catholic Church has daily masses, so it is not as if we are opposed to having Mass on the Sabbath. I think it is just that keeping the Sabbath holy for us is done by going on Sunday, but I don’t think we have to be opposed to someone keeping the Sabbath holy on Saturday, do we?

Like it has been mentioned, it is a Church Authority issue and the founder of the two Churches should be considered. Do they believe the Catholic Church has its beginning with Peter? Do they know that SDA was founded much later and I think by someone named William Miller, but I am not sure about that. It seems that I heard a woman has something to do with the founding of SDA, too, but someone on this forum will have the details of this, I am sure.

Why follow what the Jews were doing and go on Saturday, when the early Christians were not Jewish, but Christian. There was a new covenant, so why not make some things new? All food was also made clean, yet they will not eat pork etc. either. It is clearly in the Bible that all food was made clean. Why do they follow the Old Testament? Why did THEY CHANGE the teaching of all food being clean as is written in the New Testament and why do they feel the SDA church have the authority to do that?
 
Whatif:

I don’t think we want to confuse the guy. We need to make sure that he understands that the Church had the Authority to change the Lord’s Day from the original Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday in commemoration of Our Lord’s Resurection.
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WhatIf:
I just wondered if you’d considered going to Saturday Mass with them just to show that it doesn’t have to be such a big issue. Also, point out that the Catholic Church has daily masses, so it is not as if we are opposed to having Mass on the Sabbath. I think it is just that keeping the Sabbath holy for us is done by going on Sunday, but I don’t think we have to be opposed to someone keeping the Sabbath holy on Saturday, do we?
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And that the Church and most of Christendom keep the Lord’s Day on Sunday, because we are under the NEW COVENANT, not the OLD LAW!

Watif, William Miller founded the interfaith Millerite movement on whose doctrine the Adventist Church first formed. Three key leaders arose from this group to found what eventually became the Seventh-Day Adventists: James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates. (from the SDA Website)

religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sevn.html
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WhatIf:
Like it has been mentioned, it is a Church Authority issue and the founder of the two Churches should be considered. Do they believe the Catholic Church has its beginning with Peter? Do they know that SDA was founded much later and I think by someone named William Miller, but I am not sure about that. It seems that I heard a woman has something to do with the founding of SDA, too, but someone on this forum will have the details of this, I am sure.
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If you do some reading, you’ll find that they had a little problem with predicting the 2nd Coming of Christ, and it NOT coming to pass. There’s an Old Testament Scripture about Prophets who keep predicting things that DON’T HAPPEN.

If you say to yourselves, “How can we recognize an oracle which the LORD has spoken?”, know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if his oracle is not fulfilled or verified, it is an oracle which the LORD did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously, and you shall have no fear of him.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 NAB

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P4X.HTM#E4
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WhatIf:
Why follow what the Jews were doing and go on Saturday, when the early Christians were not Jewish, but Christian. There was a new covenant, so why not make some things new? All food was also made clean, yet they will not eat pork etc. either. It is clearly in the Bible that all food was made clean. Why do they follow the Old Testament? Why did THEY CHANGE the teaching of all food being clean as is written in the New Testament and why do they feel the SDA church have the authority to do that?
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These dietary Laws were part of what St. Paul refered to when he used the Phrase, “Works of the Law”.

Since the SDA are intent on doing “Works of he Law” and not just keeping the commandments, ask them how they are saved?

We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? 17 Of course not!

Galatians 2:15-27 NAB

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P102.HTM

This shopuld be suffeicent to start somequestioning. Just make sure that you let you friend know that you really do cae. You’ll accomplish a whole lot more with real caring and intercession than you can with direct action.

Blessings and Peace, Michael;
 
midgetface said:
👍 :clapping: :dancing:

One of the best explanations I’ve seen. Can I borrow it?
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Hey run with it, im sure i took it from someone at some point in time!
 
This is what I’ve heard: The first Christians, those baptized by Peter and the Apostles on and right after the first Pentecost, still worshiped as Jews on the Sabbath, , like Pharisees and Essenes, coming together for the Lord’s Supper on the first day, Sunday. They were considered one of the “sects” within Judaism. At some point, very early in the Church, they were “kicked out” of Judaism and became what we know as Christians, worshipping only on the first day. Unfortunately, I do not remember where I heard this.

Peace,
Linda
 
First we need to make a distinction concerning the Old Law or the Law of Moses and the New Law or the Law of Christ. The only ones who were ever obligated to follow the Old Law were the Jews up until the time of Christ. The only parts of the Law of Moses that we follow are the ones that pertain to the natural law because the natural law is part of the Law of Christ. From the Catechism of the Council of Trent concerning the third commandment:

The other Commandments of the Decalogue (except the third, or Sabbath command) are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses…the Commandments contained in the tow tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but becasue they are in conformity with nature, which dictates obedience to them."

The day of worship for Catholics is Sunday (1Cor16:2, Rev 1:10) as we no longer are obligated to the Sabbath day of worship (Col 2:16, Rom 14:5).
 
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