Help Catholic friend deciding: Jesus or Judaism?

[Penguin8]

My friend is 58 years old, a Catholic for 50 years. Some years ago, he wanted freedom from the restrictions, fear, and guilt of Catholicism (he says), so he left the Church. He has attended a Reformed Jewish Synagogue on and off, and they are in his Will. However, he does not want to become Jewish. Yet, he is on an intellectual search to find out “the nature of God” and to answer the question, “Is Jesus Christ God?” He is agonizing, yet will not make a decision. I have advised him that Christ does demand an answer, especially from one who was exposed to Him for this long. Could anyone give me advice on what you woukd say to this man? Am I wrong in causing “fear and guilt” in him because I tell him plainly what Christ demands, biblically?

Thank you so very much.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I think you should wish him well on his search and be supportive.
Good for him that he’s seeking answers and reading up on it. Most people do not care enough to research and study the religion they follow.
A person has to come to their beliefs organically, they can’t just believe what someone tells them and/or they can’t “fake” believing in something.
What good would causing guilt and fear in him do?
These are exactly the reasons why he left the religion, as you said, in the first place. It may only push him away from further consideration of Christianity and I assume that’s not your goal.

.

Well said, IMO.

 

[cguerber]

If he doesn’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God, it’s going to be difficult to show or tell him anything. It will be regarded as ‘opinion’. I was that way at one time. It wasn’t until I started reading the Bible and making connections between what was said in the OT that came true through Jesus in the NT that my wheels started turning. It isn’t a matter of coincidence that so much that was taught came to be in the NT and will again at the second coming. That’s when I started to take the book serious.

I would suggest he pray to God for guidance. Also, if and when he does believe the Bible, read the first chapter of the book of John. It really put me over the top about Jesus Christ being God.

God Bless,
CG

 

[PennyinCanada]

Don’t try to pressure him to make some decision. That will sabotage any hopes of him returning.

I’m sure he’s seen The 10 Commandments, with Charleton Heston. There are hundreds of things written in the Old Testament that points to Christ, Who is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Moses is a type, that points to Christ. When Moses comes down from the mountain with the 10 Commandments, this event is pointing to Christ, who came down from Heaven, the Word of God made flesh. The Hebrews knew Moses was with God because his face was glowing. In the New Testament, we have the Transfiguration of the Lord where His face is glowing bright as the sun. The parting of the Red Sea was Christ, when he descended to the dead and opened Heaven, and they crossed over. And it will be like that one day in the final coming. The marking of the door posts and lentils with the blood of the unblemished lamb, who pointed to Christ, the unblemished Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, as John the Baptist cries out when he sees Christ.

There’s tons more, but a familiar movie helps to bring images alive in the bible. Pray for him that the light of the Holy Spirit shine brightly into his mind, his heart and soul that he come one Fire for love of Christ who has been so patiently waiting for his return home.

Jesus, we trust in You!!

 

[Kal2012]

1. Allow your friend to find his own path, regardless if it’s Christian or not. Love him regardless of his choices.
2. The church of his youth has changed a lot since V2.
3. A lot of elements of a Jewish worship service are present/similar in a Catholic service.

The cantor. The procession with the Bible. Readings and audience responses.

1. Ultimately, I chose Christianity because I tried living my life w/out Jesus and it was very empty and dark.

However, I can understand wanting to know the roots of our faith (which is Judaism and Jewish culture). I appreciate Christianity so much more because I know a lot about Judaism. However, as others have said, you need to step out the way and let the Holy Spirit work in his life. Surround this person with good, strong Catholics who can answer his questions.

It’s perfectly natural for some people to question and understand where their faith comes from and know the “Truth” and fight/struggle with it.

1. Christianity does itself a disservice by not teaching people about Jewish culture or the Old Testament. A lot of times, Christian churches do a bad job teaching people material from the Old Testament (which is the Jewish Bible). Of course, the focus should be on Jesus, but there’s a lack of knowledge of what the Old Testament talks about outside of Adam/Eve and the Exodus.

Also, in the Protestant world I was in, there was the Easter Season and Christmas, but other than that, time wasn’t really marked the way it is in Catholicism (and Protestant high churches). That’s very Jewish too. There’s always a celebration or remembrance coming up on their calendar.

I love Judaism because that’s the faith that Jesus came out of and the year or so I spent learning about Judaism was one of the best experiences of my life. However, Jesus did come from our Lord and was conceived by the Virgin Mary…and on and on…in the end, he is the Messiah and worthy of our worship and love.

Catholicism merges what’s best about Christianity with the worship style of the Jews. (Though, they don’t kneel or have the Eucharist and there are some differences - like no Torah…).

Your friend isn’t the only one who’s been on this journey. (Been there, done that - eventually became a Catholic!)

Good luck to you. I hope my post has given you some perspective and can help you figure out how to help your friend.

 

[HereAndThere]

Hi, EWTN’s “The Journey Home” has a good set of conversion stories from Judaism to Catholicism. I believe some of them are available on-line. They might help answer some of his questions, since he seems to have adopted a Jewish perspective even though not Jewish. If he has a bit of an intellectual bent and enjoys history, he may like the book “The Pillar of Fire” by Karl Stern if he has not read it. One of my favorites. I agree with other commenters that you should encourage his searching, without the pressure, and mostly pray for him.

 

[Penguin8]

If he doesn’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God, it’s going to be difficult to show or tell him anything. It will be regarded as ‘opinion’. I was that way at one time. It wasn’t until I started reading the Bible and making connections between what was said in the OT that came true through Jesus in the NT that my wheels started turning. It isn’t a matter of coincidence that so much that was taught came to be in the NT and will again at the second coming. That’s when I started to take the book serious.

I would suggest he pray to God for guidance. Also, if and when he does believe the Bible, read the first chapter of the book of John. It really put me over the top about Jesus Christ being God.

God Bless,
CG

You are so right in saying that, as with you and many others, he considers the question of whether Jesus is God to be opinion. He believed for 50 years, and now he thinks that Jesus was “Just some guy”. I called Catholic Answers this week and received a bunch of resources from Jimmy Akin (Thank you, Jimmy!) on the relationship between the God of Israel and how Jesus was the PREDICTED Messiah. I hope he takes these seriously… But you never know…

Thanks for suggesting that he read the first chapter of John. I will ask him to do that. John is beautiful beyond description!

God Bless

 

[Penguin8]

Don’t try to pressure him to make some decision. That will sabotage any hopes of him returning.

I’m sure he’s seen The 10 Commandments, with Charleton Heston. There are hundreds of things written in the Old Testament that points to Christ, Who is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Moses is a type, that points to Christ. When Moses comes down from the mountain with the 10 Commandments, this event is pointing to Christ, who came down from Heaven, the Word of God made flesh. The Hebrews knew Moses was with God because his face was glowing. In the New Testament, we have the Transfiguration of the Lord where His face is glowing bright as the sun. The parting of the Red Sea was Christ, when he descended to the dead and opened Heaven, and they crossed over. And it will be like that one day in the final coming. The marking of the door posts and lentils with the blood of the unblemished lamb, who pointed to Christ, the unblemished Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, as John the Baptist cries out when he sees Christ.

There’s tons more, but a familiar movie helps to bring images alive in the bible. Pray for him that the light of the Holy Spirit shine brightly into his mind, his heart and soul that he come one Fire for love of Christ who has been so patiently waiting for his return home.

Jesus, we trust in You!!

Hmm… I don’t know that he has seen “The Ten Commandments”. Thanks, I will suggest that to him! I will also show him the second paragraph of your post - I think it may help him. My prayer buddy and I have been praying for him weekly, and I pray for him at Mass often; I truly believe, and see, that he has “loosened up” greatly. By that I mean that he actually brought his inquisitive mind and his troubled heart to my home and discussed this with me, someone who cares, for 8 HOURS! (That still blows my mind!!!)

Thanks very much. “Jesus we trust in You, indeed!”

 

[Penguin8]

1. Allow your friend to find his own path, regardless if it’s Christian or not. Love him regardless of his choices.
2. The church of his youth has changed a lot since V2.
3. A lot of elements of a Jewish worship service are present/similar in a Catholic service.

The cantor. The procession with the Bible. Readings and audience responses.

1. Ultimately, I chose Christianity because I tried living my life w/out Jesus and it was very empty and dark.

However, I can understand wanting to know the roots of our faith (which is Judaism and Jewish culture). I appreciate Christianity so much more because I know a lot about Judaism. However, as others have said, you need to step out the way and let the Holy Spirit work in his life. Surround this person with good, strong Catholics who can answer his questions.

It’s perfectly natural for some people to question and understand where their faith comes from and know the “Truth” and fight/struggle with it.

1. Christianity does itself a disservice by not teaching people about Jewish culture or the Old Testament. A lot of times, Christian churches do a bad job teaching people material from the Old Testament (which is the Jewish Bible). Of course, the focus should be on Jesus, but there’s a lack of knowledge of what the Old Testament talks about outside of Adam/Eve and the Exodus.

Also, in the Protestant world I was in, there was the Easter Season and Christmas, but other than that, time wasn’t really marked the way it is in Catholicism (and Protestant high churches). That’s very Jewish too. There’s always a celebration or remembrance coming up on their calendar.

I love Judaism because that’s the faith that Jesus came out of and the year or so I spent learning about Judaism was one of the best experiences of my life. However, Jesus did come from our Lord and was conceived by the Virgin Mary…and on and on…in the end, he is the Messiah and worthy of our worship and love.

Catholicism merges what’s best about Christianity with the worship style of the Jews. (Though, they don’t kneel or have the Eucharist and there are some differences - like no Torah…).

Your friend isn’t the only one who’s been on this journey. (Been there, done that - eventually became a Catholic!)

Good luck to you. I hope my post has given you some perspective and can help you figure out how to help your friend.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I recognize that I cannot decide for him or, in the final analysis, do a whole lot of “anything” for him. Maybe in the end, he will just remember that I loved him enough to CARE.

I relate to what you said about life being so empty and dark without Jesus Christ! You put that so well. HE has said this: “Christianity is better than Judaism because there is mercy and forgiveness”. He went on to explain that his Jewish friends @ the Synagogue would NOT accept him back if, in the course of his spiritual inquiry, he were to leave for awhile. Not so with the Catholic Church, he said: He can come home at any time, be forgiven, and resume his loving worship of Christ. That makes a HUGE difference, he says.

I so wish that, as you suggested, I could surround him with “Good strong Catholics who could answer his questions”! I can’t really choose his friends for him, tthough; nor can I make him come to a venue where there are a number of Catholics who could help him out. (Unfortunately.) I believe that I am likely the only Catholic person with whom he discusses this… Great idea though!

I wonder, could you tell me where you went to obtain your thorough knowledge of Judaism? I learned a tremendous amount in 10 years of Catholic school, and of course have learned more since; but would like to learn more in order to relate to my friend.

I am so happy for you, that you have the love, joy, and comfort of knowing Christ as a Catholic now!! It truly is the fullness os the Christian faith, IMHO.

 

[Penguin8]

Hi, EWTN’s “The Journey Home” has a good set of conversion stories from Judaism to Catholicism. I believe some of them are available on-line. They might help answer some of his questions, since he seems to have adopted a Jewish perspective even though not Jewish. If he has a bit of an intellectual bent and enjoys history, he may like the book “The Pillar of Fire” by Karl Stern if he has not read it. One of my favorites. I agree with other commenters that you should encourage his searching, without the pressure, and mostly pray for him.

Thank you! I will take your suggestions, and watch the Jewish to Catholic converts on EWTN’s “The Journey Home”, as well as recommending “The Pillar of Fire”, by Karl Stern. He has a VERY intellectual bent; in fact, he thinks he can decide this based on intellectual understanding, which he says is VERY Jewish.

I have backed off after that 8 hour conversation, and am continuing to pray for him. It is interesting that every few months he brings this subject up, says noxious and untrue things about Christ, and then of course I speak up to clarify his confusions. On Saturday, toward the end, he said, “You Are Rock”. I guess that I have to believe that there is some reason within him that causes him to turn to his “rock-solid” friend who believes in Jesus Christ and who is strongly Catholic, to share about this topic.

Thank you!

 

[meltzerboy]

Thank you! I will take your suggestions, and watch the Jewish to Catholic converts on EWTN’s “The Journey Home”, as well as recommending “The Pillar of Fire”, by Karl Stern. He has a VERY intellectual bent; in fact, he thinks he can decide this based on intellectual understanding, which he says is VERY Jewish.

I have backed off after that 8 hour conversation, and am continuing to pray for him. It is interesting that every few months he brings this subject up, says noxious and untrue things about Christ, and then of course I speak up to clarify his confusions. On Saturday, toward the end, he said, “You Are Rock”. I guess that I have to believe that there is some reason within him that causes him to turn to his “rock-solid” friend who believes in Jesus Christ and who is strongly Catholic, to share about this topic.

Thank you!

Ultimately, he cannot and should not make his decision based on “intellectual understanding.” While reason can be applied to show evidence of the truth of mostly any religion, it is really faith that guides us to make a decision, never reason alone. And Judaism is no different from Catholicism in this respect. We practice certain traditions in Judaism not because they all seem reasonable but because G-d has given us guidelines that command us to do so, some of which we understand and some of which we do not. No, reason alone will not be sufficient to him or anyone else; he must acquire faith.

 

[Penguin8]

Ultimately, he cannot and should not make his decision based on “intellectual understanding.” While reason can be applied to show evidence of the truth of mostly any religion, it is really faith that guides us to make a decision, never reason alone. And Judaism is no different from Catholicism in this respect. We practice certain traditions in Judaism not because they all seem reasonable but because G-d has given us guidelines that command us to do so, some of which we understand and some of which we do not. No, reason alone will not be sufficient to him or anyone else; he must acquire faith.

Thank you for informing me that, in Judaism, it is faith - not intellectual understanding or “evidence” alone - that guides one to make his or her decision. I have wondered at times about various things he has told me about being Jewish, and this was one of them.

My friend resists and rejects the notion of being “commanded” to do anything. It’s curious and interesting; at least, to me it is. At one point I got frustrated and asked him, "IF JESUS IS ACTUALLY GOD (hypothetical), does he have a right to request or demand certain things of us? My friend hemmed and hawed and then reluctantly said “yes”.

Sometimes I think that, in this day and age, with narcissism increasing exponentially among people, (e.g. The attitude that, “The world is as I - ME, MYSELF, AND I - say it is! What’s right for you is wrong for me!” - that self-centered view of self in relation to the world that moves the compass of one’s conscience into ONESELF alone) many people think that God has to agree with whatever THEY, not God, decide or command. I pointed out to my friend that, if Jesus IS Christ, the Messiah, then he is going to have feelings about our taking that attitude. One might want to consider that seriously and carefully…

I SO agree with you on the crucial role of FAITH in making this kind of decision ! Sadly, my friend said, “I will NEVER make a leap of faith!” To me this seems to mean that he is intent on understanding “the mind of God”… Umm… Good luck with that!

I would like to ask you this, please: How is it that one can be both Jewish and an Atheist? I have been told this by a Jewish-from-birth friend as well as by my befuddled friend about whom I write. My understanding, from 10 years of learning about the Jewish people and the Torah in Catholic School, is that GOD has a COVENANT with them. This is sacred territory. It is as far from ATHEISM as one can get! Is this passé at this point in time??

Thank you so much for your response!!

 

[meltzerboy]

Thank you for informing me that, in Judaism, it is faith - not intellectual understanding or “evidence” alone - that guides one to make his or her decision. I have wondered at times about various things he has told me about being Jewish, and this was one of them.

My friend resists and rejects the notion of being “commanded” to do anything. It’s curious and interesting; at least, to me it is. At one point I got frustrated and asked him, "IF JESUS IS ACTUALLY GOD (hypothetical), does he have a right to request or demand certain things of us? My friend hemmed and hawed and then reluctantly said “yes”.

Sometimes I think that, in this day and age, with narcissism increasing exponentially among people, (e.g. The attitude that, “The world is as I - ME, MYSELF, AND I - say it is! What’s right for you is wrong for me!” - that self-centered view of self in relation to the world that moves the compass of one’s conscience into ONESELF alone) many people think that God has to agree with whatever THEY, not God, decide or command. I pointed out to my friend that, if Jesus IS Christ, the Messiah, then he is going to have feelings about our taking that attitude. One might want to consider that seriously and carefully…

I SO agree with you on the crucial role of FAITH in making this kind of decision ! Sadly, my friend said, “I will NEVER make a leap of faith!” To me this seems to mean that he is intent on understanding “the mind of God”… Umm… Good luck with that!

I would like to ask you this, please: How is it that one can be both Jewish and an Atheist? I have been told this by a Jewish-from-birth friend as well as by my befuddled friend about whom I write. My understanding, from 10 years of learning about the Jewish people and the Torah in Catholic School, is that GOD has a COVENANT with them. This is sacred territory. It is as far from ATHEISM as one can get! Is this passé at this point in time??

Thank you so much for your response!!

I find the concept of a Jewish atheist strange as well. However, it does exist in reality. What I think this means is those who identify as both Jewish and atheist think of their Jewishness in terms of cultural identity rather than religious identity. Personally, I’ve always identified as Jewish almost exclusively in a religious sense even though the world at large may not. In fact, some even speak of a “Jewish race” apart from a Jewish people, nation, and culture, which I find somewhat offensive and probably inaccurate.

 

[Penguin8]

I find the concept of a Jewish atheist strange as well. However, it does exist in reality. What I think this means is those who identify as both Jewish and atheist think of their Jewishness in terms of cultural identity rather than religious identity. Personally, I’ve always identified as Jewish almost exclusively in a religious sense even though the world at large may not. In fact, some even speak of a “Jewish race” apart from a Jewish people, nation, and culture, which I find somewhat offensive and probably inaccurate.

I can understand what you are saying about thinking of one’s Jewishness in terms of a cultural identity only - or mostly. Actually, I have a dear friend who identifies in that way, although she does not describe herself as an atheist. She does believe in God and she reveres the Jewish traditions in a cultural sense. She says she has a very vague sense of God though; God is not “someONE” to whom she prays or with whom she feels she can have a close relationship. I’m not sure exactly what she believes, in a purely religious sense. I GREATLY ADMIRE her for her goodness, in action. She places a high value on making the world better wherever she can, and she is VERY honest. Those are values that I hokd and try to practice as well.

I had a Jewish boyfriend many years ago. Well, at one point I asked him if he considered himself to be part of a “Jewish race”, and he was horrified. He said “NO!!!” vehemently, and I apologized sincerely. :blushing: I learned my lesson that day! :tsktsk:

Thanks for your response!

 

[meltzerboy]

I can understand what you are saying about thinking of one’s Jewishness in terms of a cultural identity only - or mostly. Actually, I have a dear friend who identifies in that way, although she does not describe herself as an atheist. She does believe in God and she reveres the Jewish traditions in a cultural sense. She says she has a very vague sense of God though; God is not “someONE” to whom she prays or with whom she feels she can have a close relationship. I’m not sure exactly what she believes, in a purely religious sense. I GREATLY ADMIRE her for her goodness, in action. She places a high value on making the world better wherever she can, and she is VERY honest. Those are values that I hokd and try to practice as well.

I had a Jewish boyfriend many years ago. Well, at one point I asked him if he considered himself to be part of a “Jewish race”, and he was horrified. He said “NO!!!” vehemently, and I apologized sincerely. :blushing: I learned my lesson that day! :tsktsk:

Thanks for your response!

Judaism is more an orthoprax religion based on moral behavior than an orthodox religion based on faith. So-called Orthodox Judaism believes this as well since it is essential to understanding the essence of the Torah and Talmud. As the latter states: “Studying is not the ultimate, but the doing.” One may KNOW what the right thing to do is intellectually and one may FEEL love and compassion for others who are suffering, but this hardly benefits them if one does not take positive action to help them. Judaism believes that G-d intentionally created the world somewhat incomplete and it is up to us humans to complete the task of creation by repairing the “holes” in the world.