help for my brother

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danandirma

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here is his e-mail to me. how can I help him?

“there is some truth in the bible and or religion. I know that. I guess I have faith in whats real, sun,moon. I just can’t believe in something that can’t be proven. god, heaven can not be proven. the truth lies within us all. my truth is no one knows!!!
I am sorry if I have upset you with my thoughts. I seam to have gotten opinionated in my old age…
I am happy for you!!!
no matter what I say or think I will always love you!!!”

thanks
God bless
YBIC
Dan
 
Here’s what I think is a simple response:

"You say you believe in the sun, moon, physical things. Those things have no beliefs, as you do; they have no understanding, as you do. They do not have beliefs or understanding because they are completely physical, and you are not.

“The part of you that is not physical is the part that survives physical death. That part of you—your soul—that survives, survives in some kind of condition. The blessed condition of being with God is heaven.”

The response goes something like this:

If you have beliefs and understanding, you are not completely physical.
If you are not completely physical, you can survive physical death.
If you survive physical death, you survive somewhere or in some sort of condition.
If you survive physical death in some sort of condition, this is what is called an afterlife.
Therefore, if you have beliefs and understanding, there is an afterlife.
You do have beliefs and understanding.
Therefore, there is an afterlife, even though you might not physically perceive it as you perceive the sun and moon.

Hope this helps.
 
It’s sad someone tries to place God into such a small container such as the physical universe, it really shows how limited his thinking is.

Does gravity exist? You can’t see it, but you know it’s there. Does the vaccume of space exist, have you personally experienced it? We take what is told to us as fact, yet we are only reading words, how do we know that is the truth, we are then forced to have “faith” that the information given is the truth because it’s accepted by so many, yet most have never touched it, or seen it in person.

We then look to the sky, does the sun and the moon exist? We see it, we feel the sun’s warmth, but we have not touched them, how do we know they too are not an illusion?

Reality, existance, these things also cannot be touched, seen, or measured, yet we know they are real, that we are real, that we are not someone elses figmint of their imagination.

I like what the previous poster stated in regards to thought, that too cannot be measured, seen, or touched, yet we know it’s real.

Have you seen an Atom? Again, gotta rely upon that pesky faith that someone in some labortory has seen one under a microscope.

Keeping the argument in that context, he has no choice but to know, that he too rely’s upon faith for his beliefs, it’s a small step from there to beleive God exists, that something was created from nothing, ie. matter and energy, physical reality itself had to come from somewhere, that it just didn’t exist on it’s own because there is no logical source for it to come into being.

Also tell him that there are those of us that require pretty much no faith in regards to understanding the existance of God, for we feel the Holy Spirit in a tangable, physical manner, not for the purpose of reinforcement needed to know that God exists, but as consolation, so, yeah, it is felt, and there are even way’s for it to be actually seen, ie. goosebumps and the hair standing on end, clearly shown.
 
It has been my experience that no amount of logical discourse can change the mind of the atheist or agnostic. A life well lived according to the principles one espouses is the best that one can do. If a person changes into a believer it is usually from something completely outside “discussions”. I would make very clear that I love this person and do not judge them, nor am I in any way disappointed or hurt by their unbelief. That only drives the wedge further. Acceptance and Christian love are the best responses.
 
It has been my experience that no amount of logical discourse can change the mind of the atheist or agnostic. A life well lived according to the principles one espouses is the best that one can do. If a person changes into a believer it is usually from something completely outside “discussions”. I would make very clear that I love this person and do not judge them, nor am I in any way disappointed or hurt by their unbelief. That only drives the wedge further. Acceptance and Christian love are the best responses.
I agree, to an extent. Definitely keep loving and praying, do not drive a wedge between the two of you.

I would, however, add this: For some people, perhaps many people, not providing a logical answer implies there IS no logical answer. You’re going to have to pray and listen to the Holy Spirit to know the right time simply to love and embrace, and the right time to give an answer. If nothing else, perhaps a logical answer will keep him thinking on the topic.

Stay in faith and not despair. It might take time, but your opportunities will come as you live a steadfast life before your family.
 
here is his e-mail to me. how can I help him?

“there is some truth in the bible and or religion. I know that. I guess I have faith in whats real, sun,moon. I just can’t believe in something that can’t be proven. god, heaven can not be proven. the truth lies within us all. my truth is no one knows!!!
I am sorry if I have upset you with my thoughts. I seam to have gotten opinionated in my old age…
I am happy for you!!!
no matter what I say or think I will always love you!!!”

thanks
God bless
YBIC
Dan
I’d get him a book on grammar. 😃 OK, just kidding, sorry.

I like the advice as to not drive a wedge between you two. When discussing matters of faith (or no-faith) keep it to “This is what I believe”. Pray. That’s about all you can do. The rest is up to the Spirit.
 
Here’s what I think is a simple response:

"You say you believe in the sun, moon, physical things. Those things have no beliefs, as you do; they have no understanding, as you do. They do not have beliefs or understanding because they are completely physical, and you are not.

“The part of you that is not physical is the part that survives physical death. That part of you—your soul—that survives, survives in some kind of condition. The blessed condition of being with God is heaven.”

The response goes something like this:

If you have beliefs and understanding, you are not completely physical.
If you are not completely physical, you can survive physical death.
If you survive physical death, you survive somewhere or in some sort of condition.
If you survive physical death in some sort of condition, this is what is called an afterlife.
Therefore, if you have beliefs and understanding, there is an afterlife.
You do have beliefs and understanding.
Therefore, there is an afterlife, even though you might not physically perceive it as you perceive the sun and moon.

Hope this helps.
What do you say to someone who equates all of human beliefs as chemical reactions in the brain? :confused:
 
If you are not completely physical, you can survive physical death.
thats like saying the data & software (these arent physical either) in the hard drive would survive after you nuke your computer.
 
here is his e-mail to me. how can I help him?

"there is some truth in the bible and or religion. I know that. I guess I have faith in whats real, sun,moon. I just can’t believe in something that can’t be proven. Dan
ask him what he knows about the sun and the moon, other than what he can see. he knows their properties, their effects and relation to the earth, the other planets, and the relation of our solar system to the galaxy and so forth. but how does he know this? unless he is astronomer and physicist and has himself scientifically proven these things, he only knows them on faith, faith in what other scientists have told him.

further ask him how much of what science has told us about these phenomena has not been proven, but is theory, theory based on propositions and hypotheses. and yet we all go on about our business as if it is all true, and depend on the sun and moon to behave the way science says they do.

much of what science tells us is true about the natural world is not based on direct observation and experiments and real evidence, but is extrapolated from what has actually been observed and is in fact, incapable of being tested or proven.
 
thats like saying the data & software (these arent physical either) in the hard drive would survive after you nuke your computer.
I don’t think so. Everything in a computer is physical. The understanding that programmed the computer in the first place—that is what is not physical.
 
What do you say to someone who equates all of human beliefs as chemical reactions in the brain? :confused:
I’d say the same thing I said in the previous post: Chemical reactions don’t possess understanding. Only a mind does.
 
thats like saying the data & software (these arent physical either) in the hard drive would survive after you nuke your computer.
Data and software is not physical? Is that not a contradiction to naturalism?
 
thanks for all the great feedback. I think I will let things be for a bit, if he has more questions, I will surely give him some of this advice.

thanks again
Dan
 
My best friend of the time died on my 22nd birthday. He was an Athiest up until a year before that, I gave him that argument I explained before. In his ulagy, the priest had his bible and showed us how far he had gotten through it, Duane was saved, all thanks to this simple logical based argument I presented him. Don’t give up on these poor creatures, you may find that your roll in their lives, not giving up on them, will make a profound impact on their souls!!! Just be gentle, non judgemental as to how you do it please!
 
What do you say to someone who equates all of human beliefs as chemical reactions in the brain? :confused:
The nature of being

I am sorry, but this post is going to be long. The answer to this qeustion cannot be said in a few words.

The problem with words, is that they hype up the true reality of things. Somebody might say that a “quantum particle” has something to do with perception. The word quantum, and the whole excitement that surrounds this new science, can encourage one to think that human beings will soon explain the human-mind.

The problem is that, whether the mind is physical or not, it cannot be said that the brain itself is responsible for our ability to think. The brain is certainly necessary in that area, but the potential to do so has existed as long as the universe has been around. The nature of thought, in itself, cannot be merely explained by its immediate physicality, but instead, its true nature can only be revealed by understanding the ultimate reality from which it is born; since it is the ultimate reality of things, which defines the powers and potential of physical being.

What is it that commanded that once physical things exist, they should then bring forth new qualities? Why should it be true that when the right chemicals mix, the double helix is actualized, giving rise to living creatures who act toward self defined ends and goals; creatures who love each other and hate each other. Does that really make sense under a naturalistic world view?

Does it make sense that when blind unthinking inanimate objects, such as atoms, randomly form a pattern at some point in space and time, they become self aware and desire life? What is life that it should be desired, and what is desire, that is should become actual given any physical event in time? To attribute these things purely to differing variations of energy, that my dreams and desires are ultimately the dreams of dancing atoms, such a thing betrays the quality of what we experience.

The quality of my being cannot be reasonably defined by two atoms crashing into each other, something more and unseen is happening; my desiring an apple, which is in itself fundamentally another grouping of inanimate atoms or individual objects, cannot be explained by pointing out a relationship between two objects. We can say at best that reality is surely the medium by which possibilities become actual, but I am defined, only by the reality that becomes actual, given the relationship of two objects.
The objects themselves are not the foundation of being and quality, and it cannot be emprically defined why some qualities should exist just because a pattern emerges at some point in space in time.

It could have easily been the case, that instead of a bigbang, a giant animal of some sort, came in to existence, which in turn gave birth to other strange animals. I can imagine a universe which could never actualised life given any interaction, despite having the same substances as ours. We can only say that things are happening in a certain way, we cannot say, according to science, that those happenings are ultimately the cause of energy. To say that physics ought to be the ultimate reality of being, is not supported, and is simply a belief. The nature of feeling, the nature of happiness, the nature of love; these things are not physical. They merely happen to exist in relation to the laws of physical reality.

Naturalism is not science, and it is not apparent at all why i should think so. Is it not more reasonable to think that physical reality is merely the metaphorical device through which immaterial possibilities and abstract ideas are expressed? Reality makes sense if the ultimate reality of a thing is a personal will; since desire is personal, life is personal, experience is personal, love is personal, but nature is impersonal. Not only that, an impersonal nature, is a perfect canvas or background upon which to express and define personal things. It is not evident, at all, that the personal and impersonal are the same thing. It seems more natural to think that they have to different natures, although such a thing is expressed within physical nature itself. Such things were destined from the beginning to become real.

What does that tell you about the ultimate reality of your being? It tells me that there is a purpose to existence. To say that some atoms have the nature of feeling, and others have in them ideas and dreams, is simply ridiculous.

We can say that it just exists for no reason, or we can say that there is something more going on then physical interaction.
 
The fact is that all systems of thought, rests on premises that cannot be proven. A true sceptic can’t rationally believe in anything until he gets to the point where he becomes sceptical of his scepticism.

cureofars.blogspot.com/2005/06/alphabet-of-thinking.html

You are probably not going to be able to debate him into faith. Your best bet is to become a saint.
 
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