Help in evangelizing/ defending Christ's supremacy

[Kathryn_Ann]

Has anyone else here ever come across the argument that all spiritual leaders, (Buddha, Ghandi, and other non Christian spiritual leaders) are equal to Christ? That God sent these other people just as He sent Christ, to speak to people in different cultures to bring them to HIs light and that Jesus is just one of many throughout history?

I’m sure all good things come from God, but I believe John 3:16 through 18 sends us a clear message of Jesus Christ’s supremacy. Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, Second Person in the Trinity.

“16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son.”

And we also know that “At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow…”

I’d be grateful for people’s thoughts and suggestions on what else to say to a Catholic person,( who is in a position of authority in the Church) , who says that Christ is just one of many good spiritual leaders. Jesus is not just one of many others. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, sent to save the world.

Perhaps the person is saying all this in the spirit of ecumenism or in trying to reach out in some way. I don’t know. But I would like to know your thoughts on this please.

 

[vames]

The Catholic person should know that Buddhists themselves are very aware of the radical differences between their beliefs and ours. In other words, ecumenism has its limits.
Try this:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6677

 

[robwar]

Has anyone else here ever come across the argument that all spiritual leaders, (Buddha, Ghandi, and other non Christian spiritual leaders) are equal to Christ? That God sent these other people just as He sent Christ, to speak to people in different cultures to bring them to HIs light and that Jesus is just one of many throughout history?

I’m sure all good things come from God, but I believe John 3:16 through 18 sends us a clear message of Jesus Christ’s supremacy. Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, Second Person in the Trinity.

“16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son.”

And we also know that “At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow…”

I’d be grateful for people’s thoughts and suggestions on what else to say to a Catholic person,( who is in a position of authority in the Church) , who says that Christ is just one of many good spiritual leaders. Jesus is not just one of many others. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, sent to save the world.

Perhaps the person is saying all this in the spirit of ecumenism or in trying to reach out in some way. I don’t know. But I would like to know your thoughts on this please.

Is this person you are talking about a priest? Is that what you mean by authority? or is this person in charge of something like RCIA? If so this person is teaching some pretty serious error and it should be brought to the attention of either the priest and if the priest won’t do anything, you may need to go higher. Someone like this isn’t going to listen to you and you may have to pursue it further if this person is in anyway in some kind of teaching position and can influence others.

 

[JRKH]

Has anyone else here ever come across the argument that all spiritual leaders, (Buddha, Ghandi, and other non Christian spiritual leaders) are equal to Christ? That God sent these other people just as He sent Christ, to speak to people in different cultures to bring them to HIs light and that Jesus is just one of many throughout history?

Yes I have run across this argument before. However - in order for this to be true the person making the argument must deny Church teaching and the witness of Scripture.

That said…I do agree that any Spiritual leader who’s guiding principle is Love must be seen in a righteous light…for we believe that God is Love and those who Love are born of God and know God (1 John 4:7-8)
Now - whether we can say that a person was “sent by God” or maybe that person was “reaching for God”…that could be a whole thread by itself. But in no case can we say that such people are God…They don’t even make that claim for themselves.
Only Christ does that.

I’m sure all good things come from God, but I believe John 3:16 through 18 sends us a clear message of Jesus Christ’s supremacy. Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, Second Person in the Trinity.

“16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son.”

And we also know that “At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow…”

This is going to be your best argument for as I said above…this person must reject official Church teaching on the matter in order to make such a claim.

I’d be grateful for people’s thoughts and suggestions on what else to say to a Catholic person,( who is in a position of authority in the Church) , who says that Christ is just one of many good spiritual leaders. Jesus is not just one of many others. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, sent to save the world.

I’d begin by asking such a person to explain how their assertion can be justified and reconciled with Church teachings on the divinity of Christ…

Perhaps the person is saying all this in the spirit of ecumenism or in trying to reach out in some way. I don’t know. But I would like to know your thoughts on this please.

yes - it could be an ecumenical error…a misunderstanding…or just plain heretical.

Peace
James

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

The Catholic person should know that Buddhists themselves are very aware of the radical differences between their beliefs and ours. In other words, ecumenism has its limits.
Try this:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6677

Thank you, vames, this is very helpful. I did not realize that Buddhists are themselves very aware of the differences, so I’ll bring that up!

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Is this person you are talking about a priest? Is that what you mean by authority? or is this person in charge of something like RCIA? If so this person is teaching some pretty serious error and it should be brought to the attention of either the priest and if the priest won’t do anything, you may need to go higher. Someone like this isn’t going to listen to you and you may have to pursue it further if this person is in anyway in some kind of teaching position and can influence others.

Thank you robwar. This is a layperson with a parish title (I can’t recall it exactly) similar to admin. assistant and who deals with planning most of the parish events. Possibly also plans classes/RCIA. I will check on this. It concerns me whenever I see someone list our Lord as just someone in a long line of great teachers, etc. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and agree with you that if this person is influencing others, this is very serious.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Yes I have run across this argument before. However - in order for this to be true the person making the argument must deny Church teaching and the witness of Scripture.

That said…I do agree that any Spiritual leader who’s guiding principle is Love must be seen in a righteous light…for we believe that God is Love and those who Love are born of God and know God (1 John 4:7-8)
Now - whether we can say that a person was “sent by God” or maybe that person was “reaching for God”…that could be a whole thread by itself. But in no case can we say that such people are God…They don’t even make that claim for themselves.
Only Christ does that.

This is going to be your best argument for as I said above…this person must reject official Church teaching on the matter in order to make such a claim.

I’d begin by asking such a person to explain how their assertion can be justified and reconciled with Church teachings on the divinity of Christ…

yes - it could be an ecumenical error…a misunderstanding…or just plain heretical.

Peace
James

James, your wisdom is very appreciated. I like your idea of beginning by asking them to explain/ justify their assertions when the Church clearly teaches us about the divinity of Christ. I think a great many people believe this kind of notion, but I was concerned to see a Catholic layperson with a parish position state this. Thank you again.

 

[Holly3278]

Has anyone else here ever come across the argument that all spiritual leaders, (Buddha, Ghandi, and other non Christian spiritual leaders) are equal to Christ? That God sent these other people just as He sent Christ, to speak to people in different cultures to bring them to HIs light and that Jesus is just one of many throughout history?

I’m sure all good things come from God, but I believe John 3:16 through 18 sends us a clear message of Jesus Christ’s supremacy. Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, Second Person in the Trinity.

“16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son.”

And we also know that “At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow…”

I’d be grateful for people’s thoughts and suggestions on what else to say to a Catholic person,( who is in a position of authority in the Church) , who says that Christ is just one of many good spiritual leaders. Jesus is not just one of many others. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, sent to save the world.

Perhaps the person is saying all this in the spirit of ecumenism or in trying to reach out in some way. I don’t know. But I would like to know your thoughts on this please.

I believe this teaching is known as relativism. Relativism cannot possibly be true. Anyway, I might be wrong about it being relativism but I know for a fact that I am not wrong about relativism being false.

 

[GratefulFred]

Another point to make regarding the supremacy of Jesus Christ is the Old Testament. Christ is the ONLY person in History to have been foretold. Christ was expected. Christ fullfilled every prediction made in the OT. Sadly, some were looking for a temporal king and missed the Spiritual King Christ is. Christ (God) deals with human hearts. Humans then deal with governing themselves.

And Christ performed many miracles. And many miracles have been performed IN HIS NAME.

Christ cannot be equal because Christ is the Living Son of God. To see Him as another equal is to deny Him as God.

---

If a lay person with some parish ministry function is unclear about this, I have to wonder what else is misunderstood? Holy Eucharist? Reconciliation? If you sense this person may need more than what you can provide, I would consider discussing the need with your pastor.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I believe this teaching is known as relativism. Relativism cannot possibly be true. Anyway, I might be wrong about it being relativism but I know for a fact that I am not wrong about relativism being false.

Yes, in the sense that relativism refers to the stance that all things are equally as good or equally true, I believe you are right Holly. Thank you for reminding us!

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Another point to make regarding the supremacy of Jesus Christ is the Old Testament. Christ is the ONLY person in History to have been foretold. Christ was expected. Christ fullfilled every prediction made in the OT. Sadly, some were looking for a temporal king and missed the Spiritual King Christ is. Christ (God) deals with human hearts. Humans then deal with governing themselves.

And Christ performed many miracles. And many miracles have been performed IN HIS NAME.

Christ cannot be equal because Christ is the Living Son of God. To see Him as another equal is to deny Him as God.

---

If a lay person with some parish ministry function is unclear about this, I have to wonder what else is misunderstood? Holy Eucharist? Reconciliation? If you sense this person may need more than what you can provide, I would consider discussing the need with your pastor.

Thank you GratefulFred, all you’ve said is very true indeed. The person is not in my parish, but I often correspond with her and have noticed this trend in her thinking and public writings.

I could ask my own pastor about exactly how to respond. I could simply write to her, and use all of the ideas in these responses to help make my concerns clear in a kind but firm way.

Part of the trend I’m seeing is an understandable pride in her unique background, which stresses nature and all things spiritual as being connected to God. Of course all good things in nature come from God, but she often goes to the extreme in venerating nature, instead of Our Heavenly Father and Creator Who gave us the world.

She then continues to list Jesus as simply one of many good people, prophets, etc, instead of writing of HIm as God’s Only Begotten Son. There are many good human sons and daughters, but “God gave His Only Begotten Son,” so that through Him we would have salvation. Our Lord Jesus is Divine, and the Second Person of the Trinity, not simply one of many good people in history. She may not realize how her writing comes across regarding this. Sometimes even the most loving and generous people, in trying to be all- inclusive and ecumenical, go too far as in this case.

Thank you very much for your kind (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Glacies]

Christ is also prefigured in the stories of the Old Testament. Mgr. Jean-Joseph Gaume in his Catechism of Perseverance lists eighteen prefigures of Christ found in the Books: {1} Adam, {2} Abel, {3} Noah, {4} Melchisedech, {5} Isaac, {6} Jacob, {7} Joseph, {8} The Paschal Lamb, {9} Manna, {10} The Sacrifice, {11} The Brazen Serpent, {12} Moses, {13} Josue, {14} Gideon, {15} Samson, {16} David, {17} Salomon, {18} Jonah. The connections are remarkable as Mgr. Gaume demonstrates. Here are the first three cases from the list:

1. Adam:

• Adam is the father of mankind according to the flesh, Christ according to the spirit
• Adam sleeping has a companion created for him from his rib, Christ dying has the Church raised from His side
• Adam as a sinner is driven from paradise to labour and sufferings and death, Christ descending from Heaven carries the sins of the world and is condemned to labour and sufferings and death
• Adam lost everything by his disobedience, Christ saves mankind by His obedience

1. Abel:

• Abel offers a sacrifice agreeable to God, Christ offers Himself as infinitely agreeable sacrifice to God
• Abel is innocently put to death by his brother Cain, Christ is innocently put to death by his brethren the Jews
• Abel’s blood cries to Heaven for vengeance, Christ’s blood cries to Heaven for mercy in our behalf
• Abel’s brother Cain was condemned to wander over the earth, Christ’s brethren the Jews were condemned to wander over the earth

1. Noah:

• Noah signifies Consoler, Jesus signifies Saviour
• Noah alone finds grace before God, Christ alone finds grace before His Father
• Noah builds an ark to save him and his family from the deluge, Christ builds His Church to save His followers from eternal death
• The higher the ark rose the closer to Heaven it came, the more the Church experiences tribulations the more She elevates Herself to God
• Noah was chosen to be the father of a new world, Christ was chosen to people the earth with the just and Heaven with saints

 

[PJM]

=Kathryn Ann;10188537]Has anyone else here ever come across the argument that all spiritual leaders, (Buddha, Ghandi, and other non Christian spiritual leaders) are equal to Christ? That God sent these other people just as He sent Christ, to speak to people in different cultures to bring them to HIs light and that Jesus is just one of many throughout history?

**Answer with this question;

Which of these “equal gods” had their birth and much of there lives prophised 700 to 1,000 years before it took place**

Christ did

Document]: In the imagery of the prophets, “spirit” and “fire” were associated with purification and restoration. The Old Testament prophets warned of a purifying fire that would refine the souls of God’s people by burning away what was impure and purifying the souls of the repentant sinner (Is 4:4; 66:24; Joel 2:30; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2-4/4:1). They also promised an outpouring of the Spirit of God when God came to redeem His people (Is 32:15; 31:31-34; 40:24;41:16; 44:3;Jer 4:11-16; 23:19; 30:23: 31:31-34; Ez 13:11; 36:25-27; 39:29;Joel 2:28-29). These were prophecies that were very familiar to the people and the significant word clues and actions that John used would have triggered the recall of these prophecies.

Isaiah 7:14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22-23: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel’–which means, ‘God with us.’

Micah 5:2: But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.

Hosea 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:14-15 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’

Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Christ is also prefigured in the stories of the Old Testament. Mgr. Jean-Joseph Gaume in his Catechism of Perseverance lists eighteen prefigures of Christ found in the Books: {1} Adam, {2} Abel, {3} Noah, {4} Melchisedech, {5} Isaac, {6} Jacob, {7} Joseph, {8} The Paschal Lamb, {9} Manna, {10} The Sacrifice, {11} The Brazen Serpent, {12} Moses, {13} Josue, {14} Gideon, {15} Samson, {16} David, {17} Salomon, {18} Jonah. The connections are remarkable as Mgr. Gaume demonstrates. Here are the first three cases from the list:

1. Adam:

• Adam is the father of mankind according to the flesh, Christ according to the spirit
• Adam sleeping has a companion created for him from his rib, Christ dying has the Church raised from His side
• Adam as a sinner is driven from paradise to labour and sufferings and death, Christ descending from Heaven carries the sins of the world and is condemned to labour and sufferings and death
• Adam lost everything by his disobedience, Christ saves mankind by His obedience

1. Abel:

• Abel offers a sacrifice agreeable to God, Christ offers Himself as infinitely agreeable sacrifice to God
• Abel is innocently put to death by his brother Cain, Christ is innocently put to death by his brethren the Jews
• Abel’s blood cries to Heaven for vengeance, Christ’s blood cries to Heaven for mercy in our behalf
• Abel’s brother Cain was condemned to wander over the earth, Christ’s brethren the Jews were condemned to wander over the earth

1. Noah:

• Noah signifies Consoler, Jesus signifies Saviour
• Noah alone finds grace before God, Christ alone finds grace before His Father
• Noah builds an ark to save him and his family from the deluge, Christ builds His Church to save His followers from eternal death
• The higher the ark rose the closer to Heaven it came, the more the Church experiences tribulations the more She elevates Herself to God
• Noah was chosen to be the father of a new world, Christ was chosen to people the earth with the just and Heaven with saints

This is excellent, Glacie, thank you so very much for all your work in sharing this. Very helpful.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

**Answer with this question;

Which of these “equal gods” had their birth and much of there lives prophised 700 to 1,000 years before it took place**

Christ did

Document]: In the imagery of the prophets, “spirit” and “fire” were associated with purification and restoration. The Old Testament prophets warned of a purifying fire that would refine the souls of God’s people by burning away what was impure and purifying the souls of the repentant sinner (Is 4:4; 66:24; Joel 2:30; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2-4/4:1). They also promised an outpouring of the Spirit of God when God came to redeem His people (Is 32:15; 31:31-34; 40:24;41:16; 44:3;Jer 4:11-16; 23:19; 30:23: 31:31-34; Ez 13:11; 36:25-27; 39:29;Joel 2:28-29). These were prophecies that were very familiar to the people and the significant word clues and actions that John used would have triggered the recall of these prophecies.

Isaiah 7:14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22-23: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel’–which means, ‘God with us.’

Micah 5:2: But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.

Hosea 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:14-15 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’

Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

PJM, I really appreciate your scripture quotations, prophecies, etc. I’m hoping this person will see the sense in all this and stop equating mere humans with the Lord of Life.