Help in replying to a pro-abortion "classmate"

[SoCalRC]

You linked me to a general question and I gave a general answer. If you want a more specfic answer you need to offer more details about a case.

But my response listed two specific cases (real cases, not purely hypothetical). If you would like more information about those, I can provide it. Not knowing what factors impact your decision making, it would be more effective for you to ask than for me to provide additional information at random.

 

[fix]

But my response listed two specific cases (real cases, not purely hypothetical). If you would like more information about those, I can provide it. Not knowing what factors impact your decision making, it would be more effective for you to ask than for me to provide additional information at random.

Sorry, I read the three links provided and saw no details in the question. I went back and reviewed the thread. I guess you are refering to your personal experiences?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes.

Double it hback at you with knobs on it.

And that’s the problem with made up facts, once someone sees you tenaciously sticking to an obvious lie, the natural reaction is to start to view everything you say with great suspician.

Who’s sticking to an “obvious lie?” I have since re-researched the issue and found mortality data that’s all over the map. I therefore freely admit the first figures may have been inaccurate.

RNMom4Life: I am sorry to have caused you distress. Your calls for unity and peace are appreciated, even if they have not been heeded. Try to understand, when Vern was calling me “pro abortion” above, it helped me tremendously in dismissing his remarks to think of him as a fellow vet.

Please give a direct quote or cite the post number where I called any poster here “pro-abortion.”

If you cannot, I refer you to your own comments about someone who persistently posts something that is false or made up.

However, once I saw him cling doggedly to an outright silly lie, I started to consider the worst. Suddenly, his comments about service seemed a little too pat, more like repeating something he had heard on talk radio than personal experience. You probably will not understand, but I had to know. The only way to explain it is to say, I was there.

Please give a direct quote or cite the post number where I called any poster here “pro-abortion.”

If you cannot, I refer you to your own comments about someone who persistently posts something that is false or made up.

That is why you will see me saddened by the constant moral comparisons between attrocities in other threads. In 4 years in Vietnam the 1/9 had about 750 "KIA"s. 750 sounds like nothing when you look at 50,000 US casualties, or the millions of lives the war claimed. But consider this, a battalion only consisted of about 800 men. They weren’t some stereotype, they were individuals. Human beings, unique creations of God. I don’t think it is possible to see that much human suffering and not be changed.

How is that relevant?

Granted, people are changed in different ways. Me, I’ve been screaming about helmet liners, body armor, and VA hospital conditions in recent years, and I am openly disdainful of civilian authority when I think politics are put ahead of troop welfare. Others certainly can and do feel quite differently. But just the idea of someone possibly pretending to be a vet to further an ideological point of view absolutely consumes me with rage. Good Catholic behavior? Absolutely not, but once I suspected I had to dig, I had to know.

Fix: I have no idea what details you want. If you have specific questions, I can probably answer them. I am very familiar with both situations.

I’m beginning to suspect this argument isn’t about abortion at all, but has some deeper meaning to you.

 

[seekerz]

My dear friends…enough already! Stop the bickering among yourselves or the only winner in this debate is satan.
You have left the topic altogether. If you must…continue it at the water cooler or the back fence.

There seems tendency by some to win an argument by making the loudest noise for the longest time while casting aspersions on those with opposing views.

Eventually, most members with opposing views concede out of exhaustion with the topic or leave in disgust, and the remaining member (under various apparent pseudonyms) has the last word.

My question is, why bother joining a forum if opposing views aren’t gonna be tolerated.

Forgive my off-topic rant.

 

[SoCalRC]

Who’s sticking to an “obvious lie?” I have since re-researched the issue and found mortality data that’s all over the map. I therefore freely admit the first figures may have been inaccurate.

Re-researched? Again, you are struggling with the truth. You made up your original number and have since attempted to do some research. Nothing you have turned up comes remotely close to your original claim, which you attributed to ‘your sources’.

Now you “freely” concede that you “may” have been inaccurate?

You are welcome to call me a liar, but only one of us has been caught in a bold faced falsehood.

Please give a direct quote or cite the post number where I called any poster here “pro-abortion.”

“Yup. Seems a lot of people have an interest in showing that pro-abortion arguments are somehow irrefutable.” - “vern humphrey”

I’m beginning to suspect this argument isn’t about abortion at all, but has some deeper meaning to you.

Not until I realized you are willing to make things up to support your point of view. That kicked some nagging doubts about some of your other personal claims into high gear. I know the 3rd Marine Division spent four years working out of Danang and certainly got its share of heat. But I must admit, with the meaning behind my note to RNMom slipping right past you, I have I still have an incredibly hard time believing that you saw any of it.

I know, its sad, but it is the same problem. Now that I know you have the capacity to be untruthful and are aggressive and evasive when caught, it is difficult to take anything at face value. Even service to country, something I greatly respect.

 

[SoCalRC]

Eventually, most members with opposing views concede out of exhaustion with the topic or leave in disgust, and the remaining member (under various apparent pseudonyms) has the last word.

My question is, why bother joining a forum if opposing views aren’t gonna be tolerated.

Again, well taken. As I noted above, it was the persistant deception that took me from reason to emotion. Do people lie about stupid things? Yes. But something about the tenacity, combined with a nagging doubt about a claim near and dear to me seemed intolerable to me. It was certainly wrong.

Likewise, there was little point in noting that, well, yes, the exact words “pro-abortion” were used. I knew, and noted, from the very beginning, that no real discussion was occuring. I should not have lost sight of that. Thank you, and thank you again to RNMom, for the reminder.

Best Wishes

 

[vern_humphrey]

Re-researched? Again, you are struggling with the truth. You made up your original number and have since attempted to do some research. Nothing you have turned up comes remotely close to your original claim, which you attributed to ‘your sources’.

Which is not true – but your compulsion to call others “liars” is noted.

Now you “freely” concede that you “may” have been inaccurate?

I freely concede that there are sources that list the untreated mortality rate at various figures – and no one here is qualified to judge amongst those studies.

You are welcome to call me a liar, but only one of us has been caught in a bold faced falsehood.

Quite the contrary – you have claimed I have called you names and “questioned your faith.”_

“Yup. Seems a lot of people have an interest in showing that pro-abortion arguments are somehow irrefutable.” - “vern humphrey”

And I stand by that. I see attacks on every attempt to deal with abortion – including such things as showing pictures of aborted fetuses.

Not until I realized you are willing to make things up to support your point of view. That kicked some nagging doubts about some of your other personal claims into high gear. I know the 3rd Marine Division spent four years working out of Danang and certainly got its share of heat. But I must admit, with the meaning behind my note to RNMom slipping right past you, I have I still have an incredibly hard time believing that you saw any of it.

Saw any of what?

I know, its sad, but it is the same problem. Now that I know you have the capacity to be untruthful and are aggressive and evasive when caught, it is difficult to take anything at face value. Even service to country, something I greatly respect.

You respect something?

 

[Mark_Leakos]

When talking about abortion, the most important thing we must determine is what are we killing. The answer to this question has never been easier to answer. We know that the embryo at the moment of conception is alive (it has growth, metabolism and the ability to reproduce at some point in the life cycle) and we now know that it is also a unique HUMAN being by virtue of it’s DNA. Thus we are talking about an innocent human life. Do we as a society allow the killing of innocent human life? Only a corrupt and evil society could allow this if the population were properly informed. I think once people can see and hear the truth they will put an end to this dark mark on our society.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When talking about abortion, the most important thing we must determine is what are we killing. The answer to this question has never been easier to answer. We know that the embryo at the moment of conception is alive (it has growth, metabolism and the ability to reproduce at some point in the life cycle) and we now know that it is also a unique HUMAN being by virtue of it’s DNA. Thus we are talking about an innocent human life. Do we as a society allow the killing of innocent human life? Only a corrupt and evil society could allow this if the population were properly informed. I think once people can see and hear the truth they will put an end to this dark mark on our society.

And as I pointed out earlier, all living human beings have the right to life as part of their human condition. No one – not the government, not “society” gives us that right. If a right must be given, it is no longer a right, but only a privilige. The authorty which gives can also withhold.

Who denies the right to life to all living human beings deines the concept of human rights* en toto*.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I don’t know if this is the place I should post this, but here I go.

Well I don’t really have classmates because of online school, but we have forums(private student only forums). I need help responding to the blob of cells argument and this, “But no mind. It can’t think or feel until it develops a brain, and at that point, it becomes murder, because you’re killing a person.” This student is responding to an anti- abortion student, I want to join in, and help the anti-abortion student(who is generally poor on facts on everything he post). I know it’s wrong, and I know there is something out there that says when babies start to feel, but I can’t find anything. What is a good response?

The DNA is still human, and no one honestly can say when the soul enters the body. We can guess, that all.

But, ask your friend, lets say we allow the cells to mature, and be born as a baby. And, say the mother decides she does not want the child because ( list the pro-abortion excuses he uses ). Should that mother who termaniated the life of her born child be sent to jail or not? The only differences between the born and unborn children is level of development, location ( in the womb, outside the womb ) and recognition of personhood. If abortion is not a crime, then by the same arguments neither should killing the baby outside the womb be a crime, even if that baby is say 40 years old.

HOW TO DEFEND YOUR PRO-LIFE VIEWS IN 5 MINUTES OR LESS By Scott Klusendorf
prolifetraining.com/Articles/Five-Minute-Prolife.htm
prolifetraining.com/Articles/abortion-debate.htm

 

[SoCalRC]

Do we as a society allow the killing of innocent human life? Only a corrupt and evil society could allow this if the population were properly informed.

I wish it were that simple. The problem is that most everyone is amiable to the killing of innocent human life, there is just serious disagreement about under what conditions.

Look at just big things like war (which claims lots of innocent lives) or capital punishment (which claims a few innocent lives). Plenty of Catholics here do not agree with the Magesterium’s current position on these issues.

When you look at more subtle things, like social justice or even fiscal policy - which both potentially shorten or extend a lot of lives, and we are even more divided.

Even with an absolute, infallible teaching like abortion, we are divided. In this thread we had an ad nauseum discussion on rather or not the surgical removal or a fetus (or its destruction with an abortion pill) is or is not a direct abortion, regardless of rather secular society calls it one or not.

I wish it were otherwise, but I don’t think that any level of education will bring real uniformity any time soon.

 

[holly_potter]

I like those arguments, but before I reply to this person, is there anything on when the brain develops, this person is against late term abortions because of the brain being developed or something like that, if it develops earlier, the debate will be much easier.

check out the national right to life website, go to abortion facts, and in there somewhere you’ll find a development timeline…
day 22: heart begins to beat (i.e. life) week 6, brain waves are detectable.

 

[cockatoo]

Here is the outcome of the debate, the kid I was debating ignored my post and went to those who had poor insulting arguments(I only state facts I do not dare call names). Then eventually a girl who claimed to have an abortion joined in and I decided to stay out of it, she was being too nasty to the other prolifers(even though one unfortunately sort of deserved it). It seemed almost like she was lashing out. She said that being pregnant was painful and dangerous, it seemed like she was giving excuses to make her feel like she did the right thing. She read a lot of books and all, i kinda felt sorry for her. I have youth group I will post more later.

 

[holly_potter]

it’s sad when people use near-anonymity online to be nasty…

obviously she would ignore your post…she doesn’t want to hear the truth. And there’s not much you can do about that, really. “lead a horse to water” and all that. But if t’were it me, I’d keep an eye on the debate, and see which mistaken notions keep reoccuring, then do your research, and come up with a smart post in reply. She’ll probably ignore that too. But if you do it consistently (but not too frequently or it will become an annoyance–another reason for her not to read your posts) then maybe you’ll have changed a pathway in the brain, and maybe someday she’ll reconsider her own positions and come to another conclusion of “her own”, but really, it’s an answer you’ve planted in her brain.

But maybe I think too much I’m definitely praying, b/c I just found out today one of my coworkers is a fallen Catholic (to say the least) and is pro-choice. She said, “I know it sounds bad, but I think people shoud abort kids who they know will be…deformed?”
Yeah, there’s a reason why it sounds bad! But i didn’t say that. I wasn’t ready to debate today, so I just listened to her side and didn’t say much. Another day I’ll debate her.

So I’m praying for your classmate and my coworker, that they’ll reconsider.

Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[cockatoo]

Well, she kinda did have a right to be nasty because this particular prolifer did not make things better. She sorta replied to me, saying of course they are alive(which was what i was arguing with the other kid), she is not the type that say they are a blob of cells. She is the type that say that “woman have the right to do whatever they want to with there bodies”, “pregnancy makes you feel horrible(she says she was pregnant for 6 weeks)”, “just because you have sex doesn’t mean that you should become pregnant” types. I had a tough time beleiving pregnancy was as bad as she was saying, I heard of many people enjoying it, but she was really upset when she started posting about pregnancy being bad(cause one guy said that he heard from his mother that it was great). She wasnt exactly emotional(how can i tell its typing), but the way she explained things seemed like she was searching for an excuse why she was “right” to abort, her biggest one was that pregnancy was more dangerous to people than other creatures and she listed sources of books she read about pregnancy.