Help Me Understand Evangelization

[Hebetron]

I recently asked this question on Catholic Answers Live and it was answered but it was answered in a sort of generalized over simplified way that I think really side stepped the core of the question.

Before asking the question however I did clarify that both the Catholic Church and the bible teach that people who have never had any exposure or real knowledge of the Catholic faith will still be granted admittance into heaven. Provided they lived a relatively good and decent life in accordance with their culture. So at a basic level understanding that you don’t have to be a Catholic to get into heaven if you’re good by your own standards and are not fully aware of the Catholic faith.

Now my question is this, if someone who is unaware of the catholic faith that is a good person to start with is already going to heaven, the central goal for any catholic, how can anyone personally justify evangelization?

To me it seems almost too great of a responsibility to attempt to share the faith with anyone for the chance they might reject it and then be doomed to an eternal hell where as if you had said nothing they may have never suffered that fate.

Now one might argue that without evangelizing the faith countless people might not be given the opportunity to make it into heaven because they are not good people to start with.

But to me that argument seems to make even less sense in that if you’re able to convert and save even 20% of the people you will evangelize to in your lifetime how many of the remaining 80% will you have now doomed to an eternity in hell. Just because they disagreed with the Catholic faith or simply didn’t like it because of the way you explained it, even if they were good people by societal standards?

In essence is it worth it to you to save a hundred even if it means condemning a thousand who would have made it to heaven without you?

I am asking this in all seriousness, please help me understand. I don’t believe anyone to be stupid and I’m sure everyone has had to think about this at some level and come to terms with or justify it in some way.

Thank you for allowing me to post my question here I do so from a most sincere place within myself and I do so only because I truly respect the Catholic faith and the people who I ask this question of. I appreciate your taking the time to read this.

-H

 

[TheDoors]

We are taught that those who feel the calling of righteousness but never hear the Word may still find their way to Heaven. We are the True Faith. If someone is living a righteous life, they will recognise Truth when they hear it. We do not convert. The Spirit converts. We simply are there to provide the introduction. It would be the cruelest of acts to let another person go through life with that holy longing and never feel the light on their face, to never know fellowship with their brothers and sisters, to never taste the Body and Blood.

 

[JNdoum]

I would have to say that it is all pretty much in God’s hands, and we must act in good faith. However, your understanding is a bit flawed. A person will most likely not go to hell if they are told about the faith once and reject it, due to some arbitrary reason. That would not truly be rejecting it, seeing as something was keeping them from having full knowledge of the faith. If someone was raised to believe the Catholic Church to be evil, and someone tried to evangelize to them with words, they would probably reject that person. They would not, however, reject Catholicism, because they still would not really know what Catholicism was, only their misconception of it. Besides this, they would not be rejecting God, providing that they were part of some Church.

Catholicism does not necessarily teach that if someone has never heard about the faith is just fine so long as they’re a good person. The Church teaches that she is in “the fullness of Truth.” I take this to mean precisely what it says: the full truth, as revealed by God, can be found in the Church. However, truth can exist outside of the Church, just not fully. Therefore, it is certainly possible for, say, a Baptist to make it to heaven. If this Baptist knows about Catholicism, but doesn’t understand it, or cannot accept it due to culture or indoctrination, then they are simply ignorant of the truth, and will most likely not be held accountable for it. Now, if someone was willfully ignorant of the truth, i.e., they know the full truth of the Church, know that it is right, and ignore or disobey it anyway, then they are guilty of mortal sin, and in danger of hell.

I could go on, but this topic branches off into several different areas of theology. If you need me to explain further, however, feel free to ask me any questions.

 

[bzkoss236]

I’ll try to answer this in the form of an analogy.

Imagine you are on the top of a mountain and you need to get down. There is only one clear path down the mountain that is sure to get you there safely. This path is not clearly marked and can be dangerous if not followed correctly, but someone did establish this safe passage down the mountain side and left people at the top of the mountain to help guide people down the mountain. You may have heard of this passage, but upon viewing the cliff you are going to traverse, you feel there is no real path and that it is bogus and choose to give up. Giving up implies that you feel the only way down is to just jump or wander down the mountain side. This path of ignorance that you create yourself is not safe. You may get down safely, but chances are not likely. Or you feel there is not bottom of the mountain and jump anyway. If you decide to investigate and decide to believe (even if in doubt) the claims of the people who say they know the way down the mountain, then you have to carefully choose who knows the way. Some of the people are vague and do not actually know the way. Some people think that just by looking down the mountain side they know the way, but don’t. You have some people who have heard the real way down the mountain, but think some aspects seem to dangerous and change the path to what they think is better, which is not a safe thing to do. And you will have people who know the truth of how to get down the mountain that has been passed onto them by the one who established the path.

You also could not have heard about the path and traverse down the mountain yourself or based on some opinions of others. This is also dangerous, but not necessarily impossible.

If it was entirely necessary that you get down the mountain safely, completely intact, which way would you choose to take the path down?

 

[ThomasMartin]

Preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words.
St. Francis of Assisi

I think these words from Saint Francis of Assisi might be of help. As I understand it, to evangelize is a mission for every single christian. To spred the gospel - “the good news”… It is not a mission to convert anyone, conversion is what comes after, when you not only spread the good news through words, but most of all through deeds. The quest of inclusive love and eternal salvation through mercy is not a message that can be intelectually accepted or denied. Most of the unbelievers and most of the non-catholics do not accept a certain angle or a certain caricature of the Truth that is presented in the Gospel by the Catholic Church.

This is why those who reject God or the Church - Wisdom 13:6 “Yet, up to this point, the complaint about this is lesser. For perhaps they made a mistake in this, while desiring and seeking to find God.”

So the mission to evangelize is not to give chance to people to be saved or let them to decide to be damned. It is more of a chance for them to see the Truth and share the Gospel - “The Good News”. As God gives us plenty from his greace already here on Earth (for example the Eucharist). Evangelization is maybe a duty of sort, but most of all it is a joy… For those who spread it and for those who receive it. We are not able to destroy someones chance for salvation through evangelization, because God is just in this.

(Please, if there is someone more educated, correct me, I am just a simple and young layman.)

 

[bzkoss236]

I’ll try to answer this in the form of an analogy.

Imagine you are on the top of a mountain and you need to get down. There is only one clear path down the mountain that is sure to get you there safely. This path is not clearly marked and can be dangerous if not followed correctly, but someone did establish this safe passage down the mountain side and left people at the top of the mountain to help guide people down the mountain. You may have heard of this passage, but upon viewing the cliff you are going to traverse, you feel there is no real path and that it is bogus and choose to give up. Giving up implies that you feel the only way down is to just jump or wander down the mountain side. This path of ignorance that you create yourself is not safe. You may get down safely, but chances are not likely. Or you feel there is not bottom of the mountain and jump anyway. If you decide to investigate and decide to believe (even if in doubt) the claims of the people who say they know the way down the mountain, then you have to carefully choose who knows the way. Some of the people are vague and do not actually know the way. Some people think that just by looking down the mountain side they know the way, but don’t. You have some people who have heard the real way down the mountain, but think some aspects seem to dangerous and change the path to what they think is better, which is not a safe thing to do. And you will have people who know the truth of how to get down the mountain that has been passed onto them by the one who established the path.

You also could not have heard about the path and traverse down the mountain yourself or based on some opinions of others. This is also dangerous, but not necessarily impossible.

If it was entirely necessary that you get down the mountain safely, completely intact, which way would you choose to take the path down?

Also, let me add that if you know the way down, wouldn’t you want to tell others how to get down safely?

 

[Hebetron]

Rather than quote everyones post I’m just going to put your name and then my reply. Thanks again for sharing your opinions.

To:The Doors
Thank you for your perspective, I agree that if an individual converts to the faith it would make much more sense that it be inspired by an done through the Spirit. That being said it still feels to me like evangelization isn’t something that is clearly good and worth doing. In fact the idea that it is Spirit who transforms an individual that seems to make it even less necessary that you actively share your faith rather than simply inform those who find you. I feel like evangelization in a way is trying to do God’s work for him. If we truly trust that God is good and wise and powerful why do we not trust that he knows what is best for people. Why do we not trust the Spirit it strong enough to guide them to use without us needing to try and seek them out, especially at the cost of damning others for eternity. It seems clear that without the help of the Catholic faith or any faith for that matter an individual can find their way.

It is only when introduced to the faith is an individual now held to specific standards, rules, and requirements that they may simply not fully understand, agree with, or have any interest in even if it is the one True Faith. I think this is most especially true with older individuals who did not grow up with a faith or one that wasn’t Catholic.

Imagine if the real truth was that of Islam or Judaism or any other faith than the Catholic faith and without ever hearing their truth you would still be saved because you try to be good to your standards but because someone found you and tried to show you their truth you are now responsible for following it or you would be lost in hell for eternity. How likely is it that you would be able to see their truth when you have only felt your own for so long?

To: JNdoum
In a way you have mirrored what I was speaking about with regards to my reply to The Doors. Yet the way you have described it seems to make less sense to me. To start it concerns me how often you speak of something as being “more or less likely” based on an individuals actions and knowledge of the Catholic faith. The Bible and the Church both state very clearly that once you know you have sin and without the help of the church that sin will remain and you will be condemned.

John 9:14 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

Now because we don’t know what the base level of knowledge someone is required to know about the Catholic Truth before they are then responsible for it, it seems to make even less sense to me as why anyone would want to actively evangelize the faith. What if it is as little as being told of the faith and not actually learning anything, what if it is only when someone has studied for years and if someone whose faith is “close enough” to the Catholic faith that they will most likely get into heaven anyway why even bother spreading the the Catholic Truth?

Finally what of those who not only reject the Catholic Truth but God as you say simply because they do not believe or know he is there to reject? Does this mean every Atheist who knows the basic principles of the Catholic Faith and many others is doomed to start with?

To me it seems the more that this is examined the less sense it makes. If we are truly talking about peoples souls for eternity why is it not more clear? How could someone who truly believes the Catholic Faith and Church be comfortable with Evangelization? These people are not poker chips, these are all individuated individuals, they are all worth saving, why are we willing to risk so many of them at to save so few at the cost of others eternal damnation. I feel like I want to say that again, Eternal Damnation.

It isn’t the faith it’s self, I can agree that it is worth teaching, worth following when individuals have asked about it and for it and seek it. I’m just talking about Evangelization, if you really believe how can it be worth it to you it just seems so selfish in a way?

To:ThomasMartin
I appreciate your analogy and when reading it I was thinking of one that I have been thinking about for several days now but before I share it with you I will ask you this? Who are we to assume we know the best way to travel down this path, sure we might see it clearly but can you point out every rock, ledge, pitfall to everyone else you take on this path? Especially at the cost of their very soul for all of eternity? If you though you knew the path well enough to get down would it be wiser to simply take those who wanted to follow you base on their actions and personal conduct or would it be a far greater think to shout out to all those you see on the mountain to talk to as many as possible telling them about your path? To tell them that you know the way, the best way but not necessarily mentioning the real risk, the real cost for turning back of failing…their very soul.

I ask are we not all in Gods image, are we not all loved by God? Why do we always assume he will not guide others down the mountain even if they have not taken the most righteous path?

Here is my analogy for you. Imagine that you have met the end of your days and as you begin to slip from this world into the next you can feel your heart as it fills with joy and love and without a doubt you know you’re in heaven for all of eternity, all worries and cares washed away with the light of purity. You look around to see your loved ones your friends, your long lost acquaintances, you even see some of your enemies and notice people who were not Catholic or Religious at all. Even so you marvel in the glory of God and his love and gift to you. Yet as you continue to look among the faces you notice that there are a few you don’t see, ones you thought for sure would be here, ones you knew in life who were good kind people that you shared the Truth with. As you begin to ask God where these friends of yours were immediately aware of their truth, their fate. They have fallen and will never be with God and will be lost for all of eternity. As you begin to ask yourself how it could be you are shown their faces hundreds of them, perhaps thousands, people you touched with the truth who could not or would not follow it. How does your heart feel, does it bother you at all that because you alone found those people and shared your Truth with them they are now in Hell for all time, would it bother you if you knew that even one person, one was only in hell because you tried to share the truth?

Now imagine you’re one of the ones who isn’t Catholic who wasn’t born in an area close to the Faith who doesn’t know the real truth and you’re good and pure in your own heart and you will indeed make it to the kingdom of heaven on your own. Would you rather just live your life or would you rather someone find you and show you the real truth at the risk of loosing your soul for all time?

 

[JNdoum]

To: JNdoum
In a way you have mirrored what I was speaking about with regards to my reply to The Doors. Yet the way you have described it seems to make less sense to me. To start it concerns me how often you speak of something as being “more or less likely” based on an individuals actions and knowledge of the Catholic faith. The Bible and the Church both state very clearly that once you know you have sin and without the help of the church that sin will remain and you will be condemned.

John 9:14 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

Now because we don’t know what the base level of knowledge someone is required to know about the Catholic Truth before they are then responsible for it, it seems to make even less sense to me as why anyone would want to actively evangelize the faith. What if it is as little as being told of the faith and not actually learning anything, what if it is only when someone has studied for years and if someone whose faith is “close enough” to the Catholic faith that they will most likely get into heaven anyway why even bother spreading the the Catholic Truth?

Finally what of those who not only reject the Catholic Truth but God as you say simply because they do not believe or know he is there to reject? Does this mean every Atheist who knows the basic principles of the Catholic Faith and many others is doomed to start with?

To me it seems the more that this is examined the less sense it makes. If we are truly talking about peoples souls for eternity why is it not more clear? How could someone who truly believes the Catholic Faith and Church be comfortable with Evangelization? These people are not poker chips, these are all individuated individuals, they are all worth saving, why are we willing to risk so many of them at to save so few at the cost of others eternal damnation. I feel like I want to say that again, Eternal Damnation.

It isn’t the faith it’s self, I can agree that it is worth teaching, worth following when individuals have asked about it and for it and seek it. I’m just talking about Evangelization, if you really believe how can it be worth it to you it just seems so selfish in a way?

I suppose that I explained myself poorly, so I’ll try to answer the question on what I perceive to be your terms. Your main issue is the fact that we don’t know whether evangelization will help or not, so let’s examine this. Let’s say someone is completely ignorant on the faith, and knows nothing about it, and therefore cannot be held responsible for it. Is this satisfactory? Imagine the faith was just regular education. Would you be content to allow a child to go without education, based only on the chance that he might use it wrongly, or reject it? In a word, “no.” We hope that the child (or in this case, the person to whom we evangelize) will see the truth in what we say, and accept it. This is doubly so for the Catholic faith, for the Holy Spirit works through us and in the person whom we evangelize to in order to convert him or her. Therefore we do not need to simply hope that the person will change for the better, but we can pray for the person (which is a huge part of evangelizing), that God will help him or her.

Moving on to what drives us to evangelization, I realize I missed a huge and crucial reason that any Catholic (or even Christian) does and must evangelize: because Christ commands it.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

— Matthew 28:19,20

openbible.info/topics/evangelism (a link with more Bible verses)

Another thing about evangelism and faith in general is that while we can know much, we cannot know everything. We can not, while on this earth, fully comprehend a concept like the Trinity, or how Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. We can come close, but whatever we think it is will never be completely correct. On the other hand, things such as sin and death can be known positively and without doubt. We can understand that God loves us unconditionally, even though it is truly baffling to consider why He would love us so, and so freely. When we evangelize, we do indeed share truth, and the good news. When someone converts to the Catholic Church, they are able to receive the Sacraments. However, evangelization also offers a chance to share in the mystery, the things we do not and cannot fully know and understand (at least, not yet).

The point of the entire last paragraph is basically that the many many goods of evangelization make it worthwhile. Besides this, I am quite positive that a person will not go to hell just because they are not Catholic. One thing you seem to believe is that people are sent to hell, which is quite the opposite of true. People send themselves to hell, they are not sent there by an angry God. Hell is not a place of eternal torture because God made it that way to punish sinners, but it is a place of horror because of what it is: eternal separation from God, which people send themselves to out of rejection of God. This rejection is pretty extreme, i.e., mortal sin. Not understanding the Church’s teachings and rejecting it is not mortal sin. Therefore, unless the person had some other mortal sin on their conscience, there should be little or nothing keeping them from heaven. However, they would probably just be scraping by.

When one has the Catholic Church, one does not just scrape by, but rather does as Christ wishes us to and excels. Christ does not call us to be mediocre, but exceptional. That is why evangelization is good, and necessary: so that we may show others how to be saints, and exceptional, as God calls us to be.

 

[jmcrae]

I recently asked this question on Catholic Answers Live and it was answered but it was answered in a sort of generalized over simplified way that I think really side stepped the core of the question.

Before asking the question however I did clarify that both the Catholic Church and the bible teach that people who have never had any exposure or real knowledge of the Catholic faith will still be granted admittance into heaven.

We trust in the mercy of God that good people will go to Heaven.

However, the question that is then raised in my mind is, Who is good? Does there exist any person on earth (apart from infants) who go through their entire lives without ever doing something they know to be wrong? I like to think I’m pretty good, and my parents tell me I was a good kid, but I know I blew it by the time I was 13 - I accepted a cigarette from a friend and smoked it, on a dare - even though I was perfectly well aware that if my mother ever found out, she’d have a fit.

Provided they lived a relatively good and decent life in accordance with their culture. So at a basic level understanding that you don’t have to be a Catholic to get into heaven if you’re good by your own standards and are not fully aware of the Catholic faith.

And who is good, by their own standards? Objectively speaking, I mean. Everyone is personally convinced that they are going to Heaven, but if they look at their own criteria for being “good,” there is almost no one who measures up to their own standards, never mind God’s standards.

Now my question is this, if someone who is unaware of the catholic faith that is a good person to start with is already going to heaven, the central goal for any catholic, how can anyone personally justify evangelization?

If I ever actually find such a person, I’ll probably tell them to carry on, they’re doing just fine. Everyone else (ie: everyone I’ve ever met so far), I’m sharing the faith with them.

 

[poptown]

The point of the entire last paragraph is basically that the many many goods of evangelization make it worthwhile. Besides this, I am quite positive that a person will not go to hell just because they are not Catholic. One thing you seem to believe is that people are sent to hell, which is quite the opposite of true. People send themselves to hell, they are not sent there by an angry God. Hell is not a place of eternal torture because God made it that way to punish sinners, but it is a place of horror because of what it is: eternal separation from God, which people send themselves to out of rejection of God. This rejection is pretty extreme, i.e., mortal sin. Not understanding the Church’s teachings and rejecting it is not mortal sin. Therefore, unless the person had some other mortal sin on their conscience, there should be little or nothing keeping them from heaven. However, they would probably just be scraping by.

Great understanding! Love it!

CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Therefore the idea is that one can be saved if one’s deed matches the Commandments of Christ, even if he/she does so with his/her own understanding that is different from Christianity or Catholicism. For example, all true Christians are selfless, but not all selfless people are Christians. Still, their obedience resonates with God’s goodness and is always initiated and preserved by God’s grace. For example, all selfless people, Christian and non-Christian, are usually regarded as “good person”, whose goodness is certainly linked to the goodness of God. Satan simply can’t produce “good person”, right?

Still, without knowing or believing in the Gospel, it’s really hard to obey Christ’s Commandments in this world. So we need to accept and make use of as much grace from God as possible in order to ensure our salvation. The most important one among all kinds of God’s grace is surely Jesus Christ Himself and the Church He founded.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Before asking the question however I did clarify that both the Catholic Church and the bible teach that people who have never had any exposure or real knowledge of the Catholic faith will still be granted admittance into heaven. Provided they lived a relatively good and decent life in accordance with their culture. So at a basic level understanding that you don’t have to be a Catholic to get into heaven if you’re good by your own standards and are not fully aware of the Catholic faith.

Your post and your question are based off of this belief here. And I think that this belief is misguided. The Bible and the Catholic Church teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. People who have never heard of Christ may be saved through the “Baptism of desire”… that is, if they had an opportunity to be Baptized and become Christian upon hearing the Gospel, they would do so.

Hebetron:

Now my question is this, if someone who is unaware of the catholic faith that is a good person to start with is already going to heaven

That’s a big “if” statement right there. How many people are good people? How many people are going to Heaven who don’t know about Jesus Christ? Sure, some people. The Church teaches that Aristotle and Plato were both saved because their extensive philosophical writings showed that they were following the law that God wrote on their hearts.

But you use the words, “good person in accordance with their culture” and “good person by their own standards”.

It’s not the standards of their culture or of themselves that will save them. But the standards of God. The law of God is written on every man’s heart. Aristotle and Plato found those standards… and they weren’t following their culture. Greek culture had homosexuals and lesbians. It had pagan worship. And all other forms of immorality that Aristotle and Plato rejected. Greek culture was free enough to give them the freedom to hold views utterly contrary to the majority of their culture.

And they came to influence Greek society themselves, as many Greeks felt that they were moral people. And indeed, by the standards of God they were moral… even though they had never heard of Christianity.

Hebetron:

But to me that argument seems to make even less sense in that if you’re able to convert and save even 20% of the people you will evangelize to in your lifetime how many of the remaining 80% will you have now doomed to an eternity in hell.

If they accept Jesus Christ, God has gained Glory. If they reject Jesus Christ, God has gained Glory. We do not spread the Gospel for men. We spread the Gospel for God.

I recommend you listen to this sermon called “Ten Shekels and a Shirt” on youtube. about a pastor who learned that the hard way. He went to Africa to save men, not to Glorify God. Who cares if 80% reject Him? We are not responsible for them. We merely plant seeds, it is the Holy Spirit’s job to water them and to grow them.

If their hearts are hardened, we can pray that their hearts change. But we can’t force them to change.

Your whole post is based on the numbers of mens’ souls, and whether they reach Heaven. It mentions NOTHING about God. In fact, I just read your first post again, and you NEVER mention either God or Jesus Christ. Not even one time.
**
Don’t let your faith revolve around men. Let it revolve around God. Let it revolve around God who became incarnate in the flesh, Our Lord Jesus Christ.**

Seriously though, I strongly, strongly encourage you to listen to this whole sermon:
youtube.com/watch?v=nDQC45_RA2c