Help! Non-Catholic believes in the Real Presence

[fellowChristian]

She says she receives the Body and Blood of Christ at her non-denom. church!

She believes in the invisible church and that there is no religion in heaven.

I’ve tried to explain the whole
Matt 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

But no luck then we talked about the Real Presence and she said she believed that and that she receives Jesus too!

How do you explain that no priest no Body and Blood?

Any converts who thought this way?

 

[Gene_Church]

Does she believe that anyone can go through the motions and consecrate the Eucharist?

 

[andzy]

She says she receives the Body and Blood of Christ at her non-denom. church

I’ve always look at it this way: it is the apostolic succession (which is only in the Catholic and Orthodox Church) that enables some persons (priests) to be used by God in turning bread and wine into His Body and Blood. If a protestant minister could do that, why not me as a layman? I might as well on Sundays just stay home, take a piece of bread and some grape juice and turn them into Christ’s Body and Blood.
I do believe that Jesus could be truly present in Protestant’s Holy Communion (as some believe), but if so, it is not His Real Body and Blood received.

She believes in the invisible church and that there is no religion in heaven.

Depending on how one defines religion, there will be either only one or none religion in heaven.

 

[Proletarian]

She believes in the invisible church and that there is no religion in heaven.

The RC also believes in an “invisible” church (to a degree)

I’ve tried to explain the whole
Matt 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

You could try showing her that the true Church of the NT also had a clear structure of authority.

Acts 14:23
And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

I Timothy 3:1, 5
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work…For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

I Peter 5:1-2
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13:7, 17
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.…Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I’m guessing her church lacks any such authority

 

[Cat]

See if she will come to Mass with you, and let her see Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Perhaps she’ll recognize Him. I did, and so did my daughters.

 

[jemfinch]

She says she receives the Body and Blood of Christ at her non-denom. church!

…

But no luck then we talked about the Real Presence and she said she believed that and that she receives Jesus too!

How do you explain that no priest no Body and Blood?

Any converts who thought this way?

I thought this way before I converted. I have a friend to who still believes like I do. The problem I eventually discovered what that I didn’t really believe in an objective Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Catholics believe that Christ is objectively, really present in the Eucharist. That is, not only is He there, but even when no one is around, He’s still there. Even if no one believes He’s really there (God forbid!) He’s still there. Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is an objective reality.

As a Protestant, I would say, “I receive Christ when I take communion,” but I finally had to admit that my belief was significantly weaker than the Catholic claim. I believed in a subjective “real” presence of Christ in communion. He was somehow made present by my personal belief when I received, but He was not present for others, who disbelieved when they took communion.

What I realized is that this, ultimately, amounts to a disbelief in the Real Presence of Christ. Reality is not subjective: things that are real continue to be real no matter who’s looking, no matter what anyone believes. but if I believed that Christ was only subjectively present in the Eucharist, that is, that His presence depended on the attitude or beliefs of the person receiving Him, then I didn’t actually believe in the Real Presence.

Despite this, as Protestant I would claim to believe in the Real Presence, based on Scripture (John 6 and the simple interpretation of the accounts of the Lord’s Supper when He said, “This is my body.”) When I thought about it more, though, I realized that Scripture seems to indicate an objective reality: Christ said, “This is my body” (implying that He had made it so, not any belief on the part of the Apostles present). When Paul talks about receiving the Eucharist in an unworthy manner in 1 Corinthians 11, he speaks of an objective reality: that we objectively profane Christ’s body and blood if we do not “discern the body”: if Paul meant “If we don’t recognize that it’s his body and blood” then my theory of a subjective real presence was out the window: if those who didn’t recognize Christ’s body in the form of bread could profane His body, then His body must be really, objectively there.

Jeremy

 

[dylanschrader]

If you believe the Church is only invisible, why would you believe in the sacraments?

Belief in the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist, means that you believe Christ chose to give grace to us using material things so that we can encounter him with our whole person–soul and body.

This is not to mention the fact that Christ clearly willed unity for his Church, and that St. Paul clearly says that receiving the Eucharist brings about that unity.The very fact that she disagrees with the Catholic Church on the nature of the Church shows that the unity Christ willed for the Church is not being manifested as it should be. Surely, she can’t think that Christ willed Christians to be divided as they are now. Without a visible principle of unity, what are we to do?

How does anyone even know whether he is a member of an invisible Church? We’re human beings! If Christ loved us enough to want a bodily encounter with us (definitively in the Incarnation) and wanted that same encounter with those who live today (the Eucharist), then why on earth would his Church not have a visible element to it?

Receiving the Eucharist is a visible action. That action has to change one’s relationship with the Church–according to St. Paul.

 

[FCEGM]

She says she receives the Body and Blood of Christ at her non-denom. church!

She believes in the invisible church and that there is no religion in heaven.

I’ve tried to explain the whole
Matt 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

But no luck then we talked about the Real Presence and she said she believed that and that she receives Jesus too!

How do you explain that no priest no Body and Blood?

Any converts who thought this way?

You might ask her whether she worships what she receives in her denomination’s communion. If not, why not?

 

[KennC]

But no luck then we talked about the Real Presence and she said she believed that and that she receives Jesus too!

How do you explain that no priest no Body and Blood?

Any converts who thought this way?

I knew this was going to happen … it’s bothered me for a long time now

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

She says she receives the Body and Blood of Christ at her non-denom. church!

She believes in the invisible church and that there is no religion in heaven.

I’ve tried to explain the whole
Matt 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.

But no luck then we talked about the Real Presence and she said she believed that and that she receives Jesus too!

How do you explain that no priest no Body and Blood?

Any converts who thought this way?

You need to explain about the Old Testament and the concept of priesthood, starting with Melchizedek and ending with the building of the Second Temple under Herod.

However you are probably not capable of giving such an explanation, nor is she ready to understand it. Just say that a real priest is as necessary as real wine and real bread.

However it is good that her non-denomination are at least attempting to celebrate the Eucharist. There might be some way in which it is effective, though it would cause too many problems for the Church to regard the bread as validly consecrated hosts.
There is such a thing as the invisible Church, and those who seek the real Church but don’t find it is where the idea makes most sense.

 

[fellowChristian]

She is what she calls " a free spirit". She is older than me, she is 43. When we are talking she gives me that " Oh you poor dear" look. It doesn’t help that I look 28. Also where we work she is “higher up on the ladder” and it all has put her in a postion to think of herself as in the “mother role.”
Actually she sounds Catholic in alot of ways and that is why it drives me crazy:banghead:

 I like the idea of asking her "do you worship the host"

but I worry that maybe I might come off sounding crazy.

 I started to explain about God making a sanctuary in Genesis and in every sanctuary God dwells in He has a priest. Adam is that priest placed in the Garden of Eden to guard and protect his bride and the santuary (the garden).

And how God does the same thing in Exodus only He has Moses and His people create a sanctuary (the Holy of Holies)and a vessel (ark of the testimony ) and places the priest in charge of protecting them.
And how with every sanctuary a sacrifice is made for God. Life is given in the name of God. Except Adam failed.

That is as far as I got.

But I know her response to “the priest has to be ordained” and the succesion of the Apostles will be :

“We are all priests in Jesus’ ministry”

I hear from her and alot of other people that ther is no visible church. My response? "Then why did they say The Body of Christ and not The Soul of Christ?"I know as a Catholic we believe in the invisible Church and the visible Church.

Where would I go from “We are all priests”?

 

[andzy]

“We are all priests in Jesus’ ministry”

Yes, we are, but there are two types of priesthood: priesthood of all believers (or priestly nation in the Old Testament times) and ordained priesthood (clergy, i.e., bishops and presbyters or priests in the New Testament, and Levi priests in the Old Testament).
So in both, the New and the Old Testaments functions of these two types of priesthood are different, and neither one of them can be without the other.

I hear from her and alot of other people that ther is no visible church.

It is true that there is not one visible Protestant church. It is because of this reason that Protestants say there is no visible church - because they don’t have it. However, Christ intended for His Church to be visible. Why then the hierarchy: bishops, priests, deacons from the very beginning of Christianity?