Help To Solve Liberal / Conservative Differences In Opinion

[ContegoFides]

There are many subjects on which differences of opinion are good and are allowed. For example, is Health Care Reform good or bad? Did Mary experience labor pains during the birth of Jesus? We can have different opinions on these matters, and in such cases it is just to “agree to disagree.” Accordingly, we should be respectful of each other on these differences.

Anything, however, that is a matter of magisterial teaching is absolute and is not open to debate or question. Jesus Christ gave the Church the power to bind and loose; it has real authority! We should never forget this fact.

Thus, for example, abortion “rights” will always be denounced. This “liberal” cause will never be accepted by the Church, and to argue otherwise is rebellion, not a respectful minority opinion.

While we should always correct Catholics who hold a contrary opinion with love and gentleness (c.f. 1 Peter 3), such contrary opinions cannot be tolerated as being acceptable.

So, the bottom line is, “it depends.”

 

[sanctamaria17]

For those of you who think social justice work is “feel good” and the “easy way out”…

It’s not.

It’s hard work. People won’t take your side, they’ll tell everyone you’re crazy, they’ll get you fired, they’ll do all sorts of things. In some places, you can get killed.

Social justice, when practiced according to Church teachings (respect for ALL life, corporal works of mercy, stewardship of money and the environment), makes us all look like fools in the eyes of society. Condemning abortion makes you look cruel, condemning overconsumption makes you look stupid, condemning unjust practice is considered inconvenient.

Case in point: My restaurant throws away pounds of intact, untouched food every night. I live in a city with a high homeless rate and a high poverty rate. This food can be used to help so many people, to at least provide temporary meals for people who otherwise would not eat. This angers me, especially because I was brought up to never waste food (my dad was poor once, he made sure we ate all we took at dinner). I’m trying to put them in partnership with donor organizations. If not, I’m seriously considering taking it all before it goes to waste and donating it myself (discerning carefully, just because it doesn’t seem to be a wise decision right now, considering this is my income). After all, they’re throwing it out anyway. Yet, I could get fired for this. I could lose my job. At the same time, I’d gladly lose my job if it meant many more would have something to eat.

If that was so “feel good”, why would I be nervous about getting fired? I would not make the decision to lose my job, my income, my rent money, so lightly.

 

[mjs1987]

For those of you who think social justice work is “feel good” and the “easy way out”…

It’s not.

It’s hard work. People won’t take your side, they’ll tell everyone you’re crazy, they’ll get you fired, they’ll do all sorts of things. In some places, you can get killed.

Social justice, when practiced according to Church teachings (respect for ALL life, corporal works of mercy, stewardship of money and the environment), makes us all look like fools in the eyes of society. Condemning abortion makes you look cruel, condemning overconsumption makes you look stupid, condemning unjust practice is considered inconvenient.

Case in point: My restaurant throws away pounds of intact, untouched food every night. I live in a city with a high homeless rate and a high poverty rate. This food can be used to help so many people, to at least provide temporary meals for people who otherwise would not eat. This angers me, especially because I was brought up to never waste food (my dad was poor once, he made sure we ate all we took at dinner). I’m trying to put them in partnership with donor organizations. If not, I’m seriously considering taking it all before it goes to waste and donating it myself (discerning carefully, just because it doesn’t seem to be a wise decision right now, considering this is my income). After all, they’re throwing it out anyway. Yet, I could get fired for this. I could lose my job. At the same time, I’d gladly lose my job if it meant many more would have something to eat.

If that was so “feel good”, why would I be nervous about getting fired? I would not make the decision to lose my job, my income, my rent money, so lightly.

Everything you say there I agree with and is my idea of social justice. Nobody would be against that definition of social justice. However, socialists have hijacked Catholic social justice and many see the two as being one and the same. I believe in working through peoples hearts to achieve justice and to not impose social justice. That is the difference between liberals and conservatives in social justice. Liberals believe that social justice needs to be imposed on people while conservatives feel that the government cannot impose charity. For example, wouldnt the best way (instead of through government mandates) to reduce waste from restaurants be to expose to people just how much is wasted and get people to demand restaurants do not throw away good food and to re-gain an old attitude that was present in this country by nearly everyone to not waste food in a manner similar to what you are doing? I like individuals like yourself acting for social justice but not government because the government removes the charity from social justice. Is government imposed social justice really charity or is it a penal fine from the government for making too much money? I believe in social justice but not government imposed social justice. What good are relief organizations and missionary groups if government money will do the job for them? Forced charity through taxation and regulations is thievery. Charity through individual actions that try to change the hearts of others and try to do good for others is social justice. Social justice is not socialism and the church needs to remove those elements from social justice in the church or tone down the socialist rhetoric otherwise people will continue to tune out the social justice message.

 

[ManOnFire]

We’re also called to be good stewards. Period. The ecosystem can be fragile and if a forest ranger knows how to protect it. You might not think it’s a big deal but it CAN be. There were beaches long before there were people. And other environmental factors can come in. Perhaps another ecosystem was destroyed that is causing it to be difficult for the fish to live. There are alot of things that going into reparing a broken ecosystem, too. Basic Ecology 101. My brother’s a trained wild forest fire fighter. He knows so much about how the disappearance of one creature can cause a chain reaction. Remember that the parks are the forrest ranger’s work place. Would you like it if some stranger walked in on your job an started criticizing you. Seriously.

Define “good stewards.” My point is that everyone has a different defintion, and therefore, frame of reference. If I were to chastize that same park worker for killing millions of living bacteria and fungi with every step, he would probably think I was nuts. I could give myself a great big self-congratulatory, self-righteous pat on the back for being “morally superior” to him because I see myself as more of a self-annointed hero than him for saving innocent lives. See the rub? This is more about the Self seeing oneself as being “right.” All I need to do is believe myself even more “right” than the next to achieve a “feelgood” ego boost.

I’ll prove my point right here:

“If you really want to save the environment, then lets outlaw such unnecessary wastes of carbon as the fashion and entertainment industries. We have perfectly functional clothes. We should learn to play our own musical instruments, sing our own songs, act out our own skits. It will be fun, artistic, educational, and it builds community. Why are we raising gas taxes on the lower and middle incomes? Every piece of food and all other goods must be transported. Gas taxes drive up the costs of food, everything else that is transported, and heat for the lower and middle incomes, which only adds to their burden. Gas tax is one of the worst ideas.”

See what I mean? The point is that some very well-intentioned people choose their beliefs and alliances for selfish “I’m better and more righteous than you” reasons. Their goal in this case is to “feel good” in a self-congratulatory way. Most of this perception is driven by the unelected media. How sad that some don’t even realize it.

 

[gmarie21]

For those of you who think social justice work is “feel good” and the “easy way out”…

It’s not.

It’s hard work. People won’t take your side, they’ll tell everyone you’re crazy, they’ll get you fired, they’ll do all sorts of things. In some places, you can get killed.

Social justice, when practiced according to Church teachings (respect for ALL life, corporal works of mercy, stewardship of money and the environment), makes us all look like fools in the eyes of society. Condemning abortion makes you look cruel, condemning overconsumption makes you look stupid, condemning unjust practice is considered inconvenient.

Case in point: My restaurant throws away pounds of intact, untouched food every night. I live in a city with a high homeless rate and a high poverty rate. This food can be used to help so many people, to at least provide temporary meals for people who otherwise would not eat. This angers me, especially because I was brought up to never waste food (my dad was poor once, he made sure we ate all we took at dinner). I’m trying to put them in partnership with donor organizations. If not, I’m seriously considering taking it all before it goes to waste and donating it myself (discerning carefully, just because it doesn’t seem to be a wise decision right now, considering this is my income). After all, they’re throwing it out anyway. Yet, I could get fired for this. I could lose my job. At the same time, I’d gladly lose my job if it meant many more would have something to eat.

If that was so “feel good”, why would I be nervous about getting fired? I would not make the decision to lose my job, my income, my rent money, so lightly.

Sancta, as a former manager of a restaurant, there are laws that prohibit restaurants from doing what you are considering. If you did that, not only would you risk your job but you’d put yourself and the restaurant you work for in serious legal jeopardy if one of those homeless were to become sick and sue (knowing where the food comes from). That’s why many restaurants do not allow the boxing up of buffet or family style meals from an event.

 

[purplesunshine]

Define “good stewards.” My point is that everyone has a different defintion, and therefore, frame of reference. If I were to chastize that same park worker for killing millions of living bacteria and fungi with every step, he would probably think I was nuts. I could give myself a great big self-congratulatory, self-righteous pat on the back for being “morally superior” to him because I see myself as more of a self-annointed hero than him for saving innocent lives. See the rub? This is more about the Self seeing oneself as being “right.” All I need to do is believe myself even more “right” than the next to achieve a “feelgood” ego boost.

…

See what I mean? The point is that some very well-intentioned people choose their beliefs and alliances for selfish “I’m better and more righteous than you” reasons. Their goal in this case is to “feel good” in a self-congratulatory way. Most of this perception is driven by the unelected media. How sad that some don’t even realize it.

Can you even comprehend that the guy wasn’t being righteous? Can you even understand that he might know a little bit more about the ecosystem then you do? This was a man at his workplace not a protesting hippy. Again, how would you feel if someone told you part of your job was stupid?

Just because the rest of the world produces carbon gives you no right to disobey an man in his workplace. Yes there are strides we must take.

And if you understood about fungus and bacteria it is rather durable. Fish, on the other hand, especially when very young, are incredibly fragile. This is why we have protected waters, this is why we can’t just go fishing whenever and whereever we want to. This is why we can’t hunt deer during some seasons even if they’ve gotten overpopulated. If there were an endangered type of fungus then I wouldn’t want you stomping all over that, either.

 

[Musician]

Can you even comprehend that the guy wasn’t being righteous? Can you even understand that he might know a little bit more about the ecosystem then you do? This was a man at his workplace not a protesting hippy. Again, how would you feel if someone told you part of your job was stupid?

Just because the rest of the world produces carbon gives you no right to disobey an man in his workplace. Yes there are strides we must take.

And if you understood about fungus and bacteria it is rather durable. Fish, on the other hand, especially when very young, are incredibly fragile. This is why we have protected waters, this is why we can’t just go fishing whenever and whereever we want to. This is why we can’t hunt deer during some seasons even if they’ve gotten overpopulated. If there were an endangered type of fungus then I wouldn’t want you stomping all over that, either.

This is exactly what I see as “being morally superior to thee”, by the use of phrases such as “can you comprehend”, etc.
Someone walking on a beach is unlikely to harm an ecosystem. Lighten up.

 

[ManOnFire]

Can you even comprehend that the guy wasn’t being righteous? Can you even understand that he might know a little bit more about the ecosystem then you do? This was a man at his workplace not a protesting hippy. Again, how would you feel if someone told you part of your job was stupid?

Just because the rest of the world produces carbon gives you no right to disobey an man in his workplace. Yes there are strides we must take.

And if you understood about fungus and bacteria it is rather durable. Fish, on the other hand, especially when very young, are incredibly fragile. This is why we have protected waters, this is why we can’t just go fishing whenever and whereever we want to. This is why we can’t hunt deer during some seasons even if they’ve gotten overpopulated. If there were an endangered type of fungus then I wouldn’t want you stomping all over that, either.

Show me where “We The People” passed a law which outlaws walking in the shallow water at the beach. I’d love to see it.

Come to think of it, maybe I should make a sandwich board with a dry, barren ecosystem from Africa, complete with pictures of starving kids, and go stand outside the department stores and movie theaters to protest the burning of unnecessary carbon. It’s sad to think that kids might be dying because the nameless, faceless, fashion industry judges us to be “incorrectly” clothed as it coerces us to buy other clothes, thereby wasting vast, unnecessary amounts of carbon. And, we can create our own entertainment and save the media from wasting so much carbon. We shouldn’t be ruining the ecosystems of others in exchange for a few laughs. And what about sports? Maybe we should consider outlawing jogging and marathons. Those runners are exhaling vast amounts of CO2. Those greedy runners. Shame.

All of these gas taxes and nary a peep about the waste occurring in the fashion and entertainment industries. Do you feel guilty about the clothes you’re wearing? How about the carbon that was burned to make that last movie you watched? Don’t you feel really badly about contributing to ruining that ecosystem? Well, you should.

 

[purplesunshine]

Show me where “We The People” passed a law which outlaws walking in the shallow water at the beach. I’d love to see it.

Come to think of it, maybe I should make a sandwich board with a dry, barren ecosystem from Africa, complete with pictures of starving kids, and go stand outside the department stores and movie theaters to protest the burning of unnecessary carbon. It’s sad to think that kids might be dying because the nameless, faceless, fashion industry judges us to be “incorrectly” clothed as it coerces us to buy other clothes, thereby wasting vast, unnecessary amounts of carbon. And, we can create our own entertainment and save the media from wasting so much carbon. We shouldn’t be ruining the ecosystems of others in exchange for a few laughs. And what about sports? Maybe we should consider outlawing jogging and marathons. Those runners are exhaling vast amounts of CO2. Those greedy runners. Shame.

All of these gas taxes and nary a peep about the waste occurring in the fashion and entertainment industries. Do you feel guilty about the clothes you’re wearing? How about the carbon that was burned to make that last movie you watched? Don’t you feel really badly about contributing to ruining that ecosystem? Well, you should.

Will you please stop making global conclusions when this is just one man, a ranger, who asked you not to do something in his park during a certian time. Did he ask you to never walk on the shore?

Why does it have to be outlawed. Why can’t you respect a person in their workplace? Its because of people like you who think they know better than a professional that ridiculous laws get made. Certinally, I’d hope you’d be a good enough person to park your cart at the end of the isle if a grocery store owner said that they’d just re-tiled and they needed the grout to set. This isn’t a matter of an eco-freak but someone doing their job that knew their stuff asking polietely for you not to do something. Show me a place in the constitution where you’re allowed to disrespect an employee just becuase you think what they say is ridiculous.

If in 10 years there are too many jelly fish or black flies because there was nothing to eat them and your kids can’t go swimming you’d be upset that they didn’t protect the environment.

 

[ManOnFire]

Will you please stop making global conclusions when this is just one man, a ranger, who asked you not to do something in his park during a certian time. Did he ask you to never walk on the shore?

Why does it have to be outlawed. Why can’t you respect a person in their workplace? Its because of people like you who think they know better than a professional that ridiculous laws get made. Certinally, I’d hope you’d be a good enough person to park your cart at the end of the isle if a grocery store owner said that they’d just re-tiled and they needed the grout to set. This isn’t a matter of an eco-freak but someone doing their job that knew their stuff asking polietely for you not to do something. Show me a place in the constitution where you’re allowed to disrespect an employee just becuase you think what they say is ridiculous.

If in 10 years there are too many jelly fish or black flies because there was nothing to eat them and your kids can’t go swimming you’d be upset that they didn’t protect the environment.

Imagine how offended the Greenpeace workers must feel at all the disrespectful people in the fashion and entertainment industries who are burning unneccessary carbon, despite those Greenpeace workers’ best heroic attempts to save the planet. Why are you disrespecting those Greenpeace workers by buying unnecessary clothes and going to movies? Show me a place in the constitution where you’re allowed to disrespect an employee just because you think what they say is ridiculous. You’ll feel pretty guilty if there’s another drought in some third world country in 10 years and you see pictures of all those starving kids, knowing that you contributed to it, just because you elected to have new clothes and a few laughs.

 

[purplesunshine]

Imagine how offended the Greenpeace workers must feel at all the disrespectful people in the fashion and entertainment industries who are burning unneccessary carbon, despite those Greenpeace workers’ best heroic attempts to save the planet. Why are you disrespecting those Greenpeace workers by buying unnecessary clothes and going to movies? Show me a place in the constitution where you’re allowed to disrespect an employee just because you think what they say is ridiculous. You’ll feel pretty guilty if there’s another drought in some third world country in 10 years and you see pictures of all those starving kids, knowing that you contributed to it, just because you elected to have new clothes and a few laughs.

Again you’re working at the macro level. Respect MUST begin on the micro level. I must begin with listening to the park ranger and buying from a grocery store that pays fairly and gets it’s food from renewable sources instead of going to labor-violating sweat-shop produce walmart.

We’re not talking about Greenpeace. We’re talking about a single park ranger who asked you not to do something.

 

[ManOnFire]

Again you’re working at the macro level. Respect MUST begin on the micro level. I must begin with listening to the park ranger and buying from a grocery store that pays fairly and gets it’s food from renewable sources instead of going to labor-violating sweat-shop produce walmart.

We’re not talking about Greenpeace. We’re talking about a single park ranger who asked you not to do something.

You crack me up. The few square inches of my footprint landed in 4 inches of water for 1 second. The hull of the canoe plowed through at least several square feet of sand in the same depth of water while he was pulling me in. If the hull of the canoe is plowing through the sand and killing small fish, why hasn’t anyone outlawed canoeing yet???

 

[purplesunshine]

You crack me up. The few square inches of my footprint landed in 4 inches of water for 1 second. The hull of the canoe plowed through at least several square feet of sand in the same depth of water while he was pulling me in. If the hull of the canoe is plowing through the sand and killing small fish, why hasn’t anyone outlawed canoeing yet???

The guy asked you not to do something…why do you have to analyze it? Why is it so difficult for you to respect him? He didn’t outlaw everything for all time, he asked you not to do something just that day at that time.

 

[ManOnFire]

The guy asked you not to do something…why do you have to analyze it? Why is it so difficult for you to respect him? He didn’t outlaw everything for all time, he asked you not to do something just that day at that time.

The guy never asked. I put one foot out of the canoe. Then he informed me that I was killing small “fishes.” Yes, he said the word fishes. If he doesn’t know that the plural of fish is fish, then how am I supposed to take his advice on ecosystems?

The funny thing is, I was concerned about the hull of the canoe getting scraped through the sand and the shells, which would make it less efficient through the water. There would be small plastic shavings that would be left in the water.

Why is it so difficult for you to respect the environment by buying less clothes and entertainment? We watch less and less TV and movies and we don’t miss it. Many of pop culture media’s messages are pro-chemical and physical pleasure and anti-True Love and spirituality. Besides, they are a waste of the earth’s natural resources.

 

[ManOnFire]

OK, so as purplesunshine and I have tried to out-do each other in our self-annointed “I’m saving the earth more than you” morally righteous exercise (to show that some people are doing it to feel superior to others), where is Truth according to the Church? We should all have freed our minds from the U.S. liberal media propaganda by now. They blamed Bush for Hurricane Katrina but give no heat to Obama because BP Oil was one of his biggest donors. Give me a break.

 

[Nec5]

Then he informed me that I was killing small “fishes.” Yes, he said the word fishes.

At least he didn’t say “meeses”.

 

[Berean2]

MoF, reading this thread is 100x more entertaining than TV or a DVD. You go, Sir! [SIGN][/SIGN]

 

[purplesunshine]

Why is it so difficult for you to respect the environment by buying less clothes and entertainment? We watch less and less TV and movies and we don’t miss it. Many of pop culture media’s messages are pro-chemical and physical pleasure and anti-True Love and spirituality. Besides, they are a waste of the earth’s natural resources.

I’m glad you have a portal on how I live.

I don’t own a TV. I own a small netbook which I use sparingly and don’t pay for internet. I don’t go out to the movies. I buy all my clothes at a thrift shop and wear them until warn. Then I recycle the clothing into dustrags or other things. It has been about 3 years since I purchased any new clothes, except for underwear. I drive sparingly and I eat rice, beans, and lentils. I literally spend $60 a year on clothing and $25 a month on food. If I used any less than I do now I’d be naked and starving.

I’m not on a soapbox. You’ve shown on many threads you’re irrational and silly, so I can see why you’d react to a simple command by a park ranger that way.

And even though I’m no Obama proponent, it’s not like Bush wasn’t cozy with the oil companies, either.

 

[ManOnFire]

I’m not on a soapbox. You’ve shown on many threads you’re irrational and silly, so I can see why you’d react to a simple command by a park ranger that way.

And even though I’m no Obama proponent, it’s not like Bush wasn’t cozy with the oil companies, either.

My posts only seem irrational and silly for those who have consiously or unconsciously allowed their values to be dictated by the unelected false god of mainstream media. Many people who accept the unelected media’s prescribed level of appropriate conservation gladly pat themselves on the back for believing themselves to be “right.” What if I want to boost my ego by convincing myself that I am more “right” than others? I could criticize windmills for being dangerous to birds. The more solar panels that are erected, the less radiational heating of the earth, which will alter the climate “somewhat.” If “anything goes,” then how can you judge me to be irrational and silly? It appears that some people have already decided what is the Truth, and closed their minds to alternatives, when the Truth is far from known. What happened to “ask questions, challenge authority?” What is so irrational about my body weight driving the hull of the canoe into the sand, killing small fishes, as the employee pronounced? You can bet that the next time this happens, I’ll ask him.

The point is that some people’s desires for self-righteousness and the resultant ego boost from believing that one is powerful enough to “save the planet” have morphed into almost cult-like fashion.