Help With Baptism Debate

[heisenburg]

I asked this before, but the thread sorta turned into whether or not baptism was even valid…

Anyway… Here is the situation…

Unfortunatly, he is using Sola Scriptora as the arguement. But here it goes,

He is claiming that my baptism is not valid at all because I was not fully immersed. His arguemnt is that everwhere in the bible where it is talking about baptism, no where does it say pour or sprinkle. Baptisim directly means immerse…

So, To him, the scripture explicitly says we must be immersed. When I came back with some of the things mentioned, in the previous post like the baptism of thousands, or baptism in the night where he called for water, he argued that pools were readily avalible and they could have simply used that. For him, imersion Baptism is Extremely scriptural.

So, how do I counter this…

As a note, the conversations Ive been having with him have been very fruitful for both of us. We have a very good repore with almost no hostility. He even agreed that it might jsut be possible that purgatory might be real, only that he wouldnt use that word. (fine with me, premise is stillt he same).

Any links or comments would eb very helpful as he is somewhat awaiting my response.

Thanks Guys

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Here catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp
I hope this helps.

 

[RobNY]

So, To him, the scripture explicitly says we must be immersed. When I came back with some of the things mentioned, in the previous post like the baptism of thousands, or baptism in the night where he called for water, he argued that pools were readily avalible and they could have simply used that. For him, imersion Baptism is Extremely scriptural.

Immersion is valid, no doubt… but that doesn’t mean that other means aren’t. Consider this verse from Ezekiel which possibly could foreshadow baptism:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. 27 I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.

Also, consider 1 Peter 3:20-21

20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Was the emphasis on immersion? Or merely on water of some sort? To hold up the analogy, was Noah submersed? No. (Actually, the submersed people were the dead ones…) He was saved “through water,” the only water that I think could have hit Noah would have been the heavy rains driving on him, surely more of a sprinkle than an immersion. Grasping at straws? Yes, my interpretation is. But the emphasis of the verse shows more that through water is important, not the submersion or sprinkling, merely the water itself. Explain to him that you think to emphasize submersion at all expenses is to lessen the central fact that it is the *water *that is symbolically central to the sacrament, not necessarily the method by which the water is applied.

 

[dafalax]

I have heard that the Jordan River is actually only a couple feet deep. In interpreting “coming up out of the water” one could say that perhaps he just stepped out of the river UP onto the riverbank. Also, in my NAB translation, only Mark says this. The other gospels are unclear. I’d think if the technique were that important, it would have been spelled out. Thank God we have 2000 years of tradition backing us up.

 

[ChemicalBean]

I suppose it’s like the TP debate.

Whether you crumple, fold, or do origami, the job gets done.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

This response would not fit the Catholic view too well, but at my Reformed Church, we would joke (Yes, Presbyterians do joke, believe it or not!!!) and say that Moses and the Israelites were sprinkled, and Pharoah and the Egyptians were immersed!!

I Corinthians 10:1,2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food.

From Exodus 16, you can almost picture the little drops of the Red Sea sprinkling the Israelites from above, and then swoosh, coming down on the Egyptians. Wow!!! Wouldn’t that been amazing to see!!!:bowdown:

Also, there’s more to this than I can get into right now, but in Hebrews 9:10, the word that you may see translated “washings” is *baptismos *in Greek (or something real close, but they didn’t immerse all their items in the OT, that would be ridiculous!! They were sprinkled, and the author of Hebrews refers to the ritual as washings/ baptismos!! That’s one argument, you’ll find it more developed, hmmm, here:

I recommend this first one highly, it’s more on the topic, he discusses the Hebrews text, and he is a wonderful Reformed pastor at a church not far from where I live. Quite scholarly man, Grover Gunn:

This one is pretty good too!

Ok, if you get to check one of those out, great!!

-Rob