Help with Mary

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JAGCath28

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Hello All!

I have a friend who is a Protestant (non-denom), and she married a Catholic. Her husband is strong in his faith, but doesn’t necessarily know how to answer her questions about Catholicism. I spent 2 weeks with her recently, and being a convert, I think she felt comfortable talking to me about some of her questions. Anyway, one of the questions she asked was about Mary and why we pray to her and what the rosary is all about. I did my best to answer her questions, but I don’t want to drop the conversation. I feel like this is an opportunity to witness to her. (Plus, after listening to some apologetics talks, one of the key points is never let a door close!)

So, I plan on writing her a letter going into some more detail about why we believe what we believe regarding Mary. I was also going to send her a few CD’s from Dr. Scott Hahn’s talks on “The Biblical Significance of Mary” and “The Virgin Mary Revealed Through Scripture”.

I wanted to know if you had any advice. I don’t want to overload her with info because I’m hoping (although it is ultimately up to the grace of God) that she is going to come back wanting to know more. I also don’t want to push her away by being to zealous/naggy regarding the Catholic faith. Should I just stick to one topic at a time such as “praying” to Mary, and then go into the deeper understanding that we have of her?

I don’t want to mess this up!

Peace and love,

Jessica
 
A good book is A Protestant Pastor Looks At Mary by Charles Dickson. It’s small, easy to read, and informative.
 
I never listen to the talks of Dr. Scott Hahn so I don’t know what’s the content of the talk,
but just in case some protestant might attack from this point of view.
  1. Matthew 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Jesus gives us the example of how to pray in The Lord’s Prayer. He doesn’t pray to Mary or any saints, and He doesn’t repeat it 20 times.

So WHY do Catholics do that? Maybe one of them will volunteer an answer here. It wasn’t practiced until Medieval times, and is part of the veneration of Mary, which is not Biblical.
  1. “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31) Do not speak to the dead
  2. Mary is dead and sleeping in her grave, she cannot hear us.
  3. Even if she can hear us, Mary does not understand modern English, Spanish, French, Chinese, Japanese, and thousands of language in the world and cannot hear all the prayer at once, because she is only human.
  4. One mediator to God that is Jesus.
These are the thing that they will attack on even if you have convinced that we are only asking Mary to intercede with us. The fifth argument were used by my friend to argue that “why do you insist to ask Mary to pray for us, when the Bible clearly tells us there’s only ONE mediator?” <— I know we shouldn’t give up but I gave up. Why? Because he cannot understand how is it NOT contradict to the verse when I explain this way “We recognize Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God, however, we are asking Mary to pray to Jesus for us…which the prayer in the end still go through Jesus”, but to him, it’s going through TWO mediator, first go through Mary then passed to Jesus to God. At least that’s what I think is what he was thinking when he really don’t understand how is it ONE mediator.

Sorry for more questions instead of bringing more answers, but just so you know which is the area that they will randomly attack from.
 
The new books on CAF by Mark Shea might also be helpful. I ordered them and I’ve only started reading the first one, but he used to be evangelical and is now a convert and so I think his book not only addresses why Catholics believe in Mary but is understanding of the protestant mindset.
 
JAGCath28 said:
Hello All!

I have a friend who is a Protestant (non-denom), and she married a Catholic. Her husband is strong in his faith, but doesn’t necessarily know how to answer her questions about Catholicism. I spent 2 weeks with her recently, and being a convert, I think she felt comfortable talking to me about some of her questions. Anyway, one of the questions she asked was about Mary and why we pray to her and what the rosary is all about. I did my best to answer her questions, but I don’t want to drop the conversation. I feel like this is an opportunity to witness to her. (Plus, after listening to some apologetics talks, one of the key points is never let a door close!)

So, I plan on writing her a letter going into some more detail about why we believe what we believe regarding Mary. I was also going to send her a few CD’s from Dr. Scott Hahn’s talks on “The Biblical Significance of Mary” and “The Virgin Mary Revealed Through Scripture”.

I wanted to know if you had any advice. I don’t want to overload her with info because I’m hoping (although it is ultimately up to the grace of God) that she is going to come back wanting to know more. I also don’t want to push her away by being to zealous/naggy regarding the Catholic faith. Should I just stick to one topic at a time such as “praying” to Mary, and then go into the deeper understanding that we have of her?

I don’t want to mess this up!

Peace and love,

Jessica
Click to expand...
You cannot mess up with the help of His Holiness John Paul II. His Holiness exhibit a great devotion to Mary as we know. The most important document in contemporary times on Mary and Marian devotion is found here:

APOSTOLIC LETTER
ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY
AND FAITHFUL
ON THE MOST HOLY ROSARY

(excerpt)
Mary’s memories
  1. Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son’s side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life.
Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel. Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.
 
I’m reminded of telling my Baptist father that the Rosary was completely Biblical. He scoffed!

I then pointed out the origin of the “Hail Mary” with Gabriel’s annunciation, and how the Mysteries follow the life of Christ.
 
totallylost said:
I never listen to the talks of Dr. Scott Hahn so I don’t know what’s the content of the talk,
but just in case some protestant might attack from this point of view.
  1. Matthew 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Jesus gives us the example of how to pray in The Lord’s Prayer. He doesn’t pray to Mary or any saints, and He doesn’t repeat it 20 times.

So WHY do Catholics do that? Maybe one of them will volunteer an answer here. It wasn’t practiced until Medieval times, and is part of the veneration of Mary, which is not Biblical.
  1. “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31) Do not speak to the dead
  2. Mary is dead and sleeping in her grave, she cannot hear us.
  3. Even if she can hear us, Mary does not understand modern English, Spanish, French, Chinese, Japanese, and thousands of language in the world and cannot hear all the prayer at once, because she is only human.
  4. One mediator to God that is Jesus.
These are the thing that they will attack on even if you have convinced that we are only asking Mary to intercede with us. The fifth argument were used by my friend to argue that “why do you insist to ask Mary to pray for us, when the Bible clearly tells us there’s only ONE mediator?” <— I know we shouldn’t give up but I gave up. Why? Because he cannot understand how is it NOT contradict to the verse when I explain this way “We recognize Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God, however, we are asking Mary to pray to Jesus for us…which the prayer in the end still go through Jesus”, but to him, it’s going through TWO mediator, first go through Mary then passed to Jesus to God. At least that’s what I think is what he was thinking when he really don’t understand how is it ONE mediator.

Sorry for more questions instead of bringing more answers, but just so you know which is the area that they will randomly attack from.
Click to expand...
  1. The prayers of the Rosary are, indeed, Biblical. The Hail Mary comes from Luke, for the most part, and the Our Father comes from Jesus. The Mysteries of the Rosary are all Biblical. In the early 1200’s Mary appread to St. Simon Stock and told him to start praying the Rosary, etc. This is private revelation and not required of Catholics or anyone. But it is allowed, and is a very powerful prayer. Keep in mind that until 1900 or so, most folks could neither read nor write. The Rosary is a summary of the New Testament life of Jesus. Great meditation, if you ask me! So, for those who could not read, they could still meditate on the life of Jesus, etc.
That aside, the Church says we should never pray “mindlessly.” We should be attentive.
  1. Leviticus, remember, is Old Testament. Nevertheless, it is referring to the occult, which was common at the time, not praying to Saints. The Bible says that Jesus is the Vine, and we are the branches. When we die in this life, and make it to heaven, we are more alive than when we lived on earth. We are more closely united to Christ. We are not “severered” from the Vine, Jesus. St. Paul exhorted ALL the faithful to “pray for one another.” This would include the faithful in heaven.
  2. There is no proof that Mary is in her grave. There is theological proof, though, that she is in heaven, body and soul. She can hear us, through the power of God, with whom she is now fully united.
  3. Mary is now totally united to Christ. It is by HIS power that Mary can understand different languages, etc. One of the misunderstandings most folks have is about eternity. We live in time, here on earth. Heaven is outside of time. God exists in the past, present, and future, all at once. Through HIS power, His Saints can intercede for us. Exactly how that works, we’ll have to wait till we enter eternity to find out.
  4. Jesus is the one mediator with God. But there are many intercessors with Jesus, especially His mother. The last place in Scripture we see Mary directly referenced is at the wedding feast at Cana. And the last thing she says is, “Do whatever He tells you.” He worked His first miracle at her bidding.
Keep this in mind, too. 1) We are to emulate Jesus as far as is possible. 2) Jesus never broke any of the Commandments. One of the Commandments is, “Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother.” The Hebrew word for “honor” is really closer to our English word for “glorify” than it is to “honor.” There is no exact English word, however, that gives the full meaning. We Catholics have three terms we use in these regards. 1) Latria - the worship reserved ONLY for God. 3) Dulia - the honor bestowed on the Saints who have reached heaven. and 3) Hyperdulia - the special honor bestowed on Mary, the Queen of Heaven (because her Son, Jesus, is King.).
 
One more point, please. Don’t get suckered into the Bible Alone approach to faith. That is nowhere in Scripture, whatsoever! The best anyone can some up with is that Scripture says it is “useful.” Jesus never wrote one word of the Bible. As God, He inspired others to write. But what He did do, was found a (one) Church. He trained 12 Apostles and commanded them to train others ALL that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20) However, the Bible, itself, says that not everything Jesus did or taught is IN the Bible (see John 21:25). So, there is a natural gap. If the Apostles are to teach EVERYTHING that Jesus taught them, but it’s not ALL in the Bible, where’s the rest that they’re responsible for teaching?! In Holy Tradition (a.k.a. - oral tradition or teaching). See 2 Thes 2:15. Therefore, to insist that the Bible is the be all and end all of Divine Revelation is to shortchange yourself and others who believe that way. The fullness of Divine Revelation is contained only in the Catholic Church’s oral and written tradition (Holy Tradition and the Bible) and authentically interpreted by the Apostles and their sucessors (the Church’s Magesterium). The Church, according to 1 Tim 3:15 is the “pillar and foundation of truth.” Not the Bible, especially when self-interpreted, which St. Peter speaks against in 2 Peter 1:20.
 
Thanks for the effort. These things can be very hard to teach to others if we think that we can do them on our own. I think the best thing to do is to continue praying to God through Mary who is the subject that your friend will know her. Personally, am praying for you and her.

Hail Mary
full of Grace
the Lord is with You
Blessed are You among women
and Blessed is the Fruit of Your womb Jesus.

Holy Mary mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death
AMEN.
 
Is God the God of the dead or the living? Are those in Heaven living or dead?
Even as a flaming fundamentalist I knew better than to say Catholics worshipped Mary, mainly because I grew up Catholic and knew that wasn‘t true.
Mary is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
 
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
**
I know there’s nothing wrong with this logical argument. I believe Mary is the mother of Jesus. I believe Jesus is God. But I still have doubts of why did the early Christians come up with this logical argument. I mean, what’s the reason why they did that? For what purpose? Don’t you think this logic is just an addition to God’s word?**
 
totallylost said:
I never listen to the talks of Dr. Scott Hahn so I don’t know what’s the content of the talk, but just in case some protestant might attack from this point of view.
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting a sample “attack from a Protestant point of view”. Clearly you chose a good username. 👍

Perhaps if you were to listen to Scott Hahn you would not be so “totallylost”!
totallylost said:
  1. Matthew 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between praying the Rosary and “babbling like pagans” with their “many words”. It seems that you see no difference, which is evidence that you do not understand the prayer of the Rosary.
totallylost said:
Jesus gives us the example of how to pray in The Lord’s Prayer. He doesn’t pray to Mary or any saints, and He doesn’t repeat it 20 times.
Click to expand...
The truth is that you don’t know how many times Jesus repeated any prayers, since none of us were present. We know He repeated one prayer at least 3 times in the Garden. He also repeated the Psalms, which were His prayer book, and which had far more than 20 repetitions in them of many parts.
totallylost said:
So WHY do Catholics do that? Maybe one of them will volunteer an answer here. It wasn’t practiced until Medieval times,
Click to expand...
This is true about the Rosary. Prior to it’s introduction, Catholics used the model of prayer set by Jesus and the Apostles, which was to recite the Psalms. All 151 of them were recited daily by the faithful. For most of the religious orders, one could not be received with final vows until they mastered all of them. The Rosary was a “concession” to help those to pray and meditate on the scriptures who were unable to recite all of the Psalms.
totallylost said:
and is part of the veneration of Mary, which is not Biblical.
Click to expand...
This is a ridiculous statement, and indicates that the person believing it cannot understand the Scripture. It is God who began venerating Mary. Catholics just follow His example.
totallylost said:
  1. “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31) Do not speak to the dead
Click to expand...
Catholics believe the words of Jesus that all who come to Him will be alive forever more. He promised eternal life, and we take Him at His word. There are no mediums and “familiar spirits” involved in the communion of the saints.

John 11:24-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

By saying that those who believe in Christ are “dead” you are calling Jesus a liar.
totallylost said:
  1. Mary is dead and sleeping in her grave, she cannot hear us.
Click to expand...
Such a statement indicates that you do not understand the afterlife at all. Perhaps you would like to explain how Samuel could hear Saul?

1 Sam 28:13-14
14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.

Perhaps you would like to explain why Samuel appeared as a “god”? Perhaps you can explain why Saul was venerating him?
totallylost said:
  1. Even if she can hear us, Mary does not understand modern English, Spanish, French, Chinese, Japanese, and thousands of language in the world and cannot hear all the prayer at once, because she is only human.
Click to expand...
Kinda like Moses and Elijah could not understand “modern Aramaic”?

Luke 9:29-32
9 And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

The fact is that “talking” within the communion of saints does not require words at all. What language do you think that Moses and Elijah used to have their little chat with the lord?
totallylost said:
  1. One mediator to God that is Jesus.
Click to expand...
Indeed yes, it is His mediation before the Father that enables all of us to become members one of another, so that each and everything we do can affect all of the others in His One Body, the Church.
totallylost said:
These are the thing that they will attack on even if you have convinced that we are only asking Mary to intercede with us. The fifth argument were used by my friend to argue that “why do you insist to ask Mary to pray for us, when the Bible clearly tells us there’s only ONE mediator?” <— I know we shouldn’t give up but I gave up. Why? Because he cannot understand how is it NOT contradict to the verse when I explain this way “We recognize Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God, however, we are asking Mary to pray to Jesus for us…which the prayer in the end still go through Jesus”, but to him, it’s going through TWO mediator, first go through Mary then passed to Jesus to God. At least that’s what I think is what he was thinking when he really don’t understand how is it ONE mediator.
Click to expand...
Yes. It is necessary to understand the difference between the mediation of our eternal life, and the intercession we do for one another as members of the Body.
totallylost said:
Sorry for more questions instead of bringing more answers, but just so you know which is the area that they will randomly attack from.
Click to expand...
This is not random. We know exactly the source of it. 😉
 
jamil_joseph02 said:
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
**
I know there’s nothing wrong with this logical argument. I believe Mary is the mother of Jesus. I believe Jesus is God. But I still have doubts of why did the early Christians come up with this logical argument. I mean, what’s the reason why they did that? For what purpose? Don’t you think this logic is just an addition to God’s word?**
Click to expand...
This is an excellent query, and worthy of research. They “came up with” the term “Theotokos” at the Council of Ephesus. You can read about it here on CAF in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It was done for the same reason they “came up with” the word “Trinity”, also not found in scripture but embraced by all Christians. These terms were necessary to define the nature of Christ (as well as the term “hypostatic union”) and to refute heresies. All we know about MAry comes from knowing about the nature of Christ.
 
Thank you for all of your help! I will continue to pray to see how the Holy Spirit directs me to continue this talk on Mary. I appreciate all of your insight and suggestions.

Peace and love,

Jessica
 
guanophore said:
Thank you for posting a sample “attack from a Protestant point of view”. Clearly you chose a good username. 👍

Perhaps if you were to listen to Scott Hahn you would not be so “totallylost”!

What is the difference between praying the Rosary and “babbling like pagans” with their “many words”. It seems that you see no difference, which is evidence that you do not understand the prayer of the Rosary.

The truth is that you don’t know how many times Jesus repeated any prayers, since none of us were present. We know He repeated one prayer at least 3 times in the Garden. He also repeated the Psalms, which were His prayer book, and which had far more than 20 repetitions in them of many parts.

This is true about the Rosary. Prior to it’s introduction, Catholics used the model of prayer set by Jesus and the Apostles, which was to recite the Psalms. All 151 of them were recited daily by the faithful. For most of the religious orders, one could not be received with final vows until they mastered all of them. The Rosary was a “concession” to help those to pray and meditate on the scriptures who were unable to recite all of the Psalms.

This is a ridiculous statement, and indicates that the person believing it cannot understand the Scripture. It is God who began venerating Mary. Catholics just follow His example.

Catholics believe the words of Jesus that all who come to Him will be alive forever more. He promised eternal life, and we take Him at His word. There are no mediums and “familiar spirits” involved in the communion of the saints.

John 11:24-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

By saying that those who believe in Christ are “dead” you are calling Jesus a liar.

Such a statement indicates that you do not understand the afterlife at all. Perhaps you would like to explain how Samuel could hear Saul?

1 Sam 28:13-14
14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.

Perhaps you would like to explain why Samuel appeared as a “god”? Perhaps you can explain why Saul was venerating him?

Kinda like Moses and Elijah could not understand “modern Aramaic”?

Luke 9:29-32
9 And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

The fact is that “talking” within the communion of saints does not require words at all. What language do you think that Moses and Elijah used to have their little chat with the lord?

Indeed yes, it is His mediation before the Father that enables all of us to become members one of another, so that each and everything we do can affect all of the others in His One Body, the Church.

Yes. It is necessary to understand the difference between the mediation of our eternal life, and the intercession we do for one another as members of the Body.

This is not random. We know exactly the source of it. 😉
Click to expand...
My dear friend,
we are having miscommunication.
Despite I indirectly mentioned that I defended the Marian Devotion in the last paragraph, I am surprised to got attack from you.

Despite I clearly said it’s from the protestant point of view and if you look at the upper right of my post, its says “Religion: Catholic”, I got attack from you.

I DID NOT say that’s my point of view.

The purpose for sharing protestant point of view is for people to be ready for any question that might come.

Peace.
 
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