Help with response to a Mormon

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Hello all! I need a little help. I recently began discussions with a former Catholic who is now a Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). I have been amicably discussing the discrepancies of Mormonism with Catholicism, and recently sent her the Nicene Creed and asked her to tell me of the discrepancies between our faith (summed up a bit in the Creed), and the Mormon beliefs. Her response is below. I would appreciate your thoughts on what a good response back to her would be. I’m especially intrigued by the fact that she always says to pray about it, but not to look at things intellectually (in bold below). Thank you in advance for your help!

"As far as the church discussion: when considering
Christianity, the question comes down to which church
currently has the power and authority to act in the name of
Jesus Christ today. There are only two possibilities: The
Roman Catholic church or The Church of Jesus Christ of latter- day Saints.

The Roman Catholic church believes that Peter was the first
pope, ordained by Jesus Christ himself, and that that
authority has successively been passed from pope to pope for
the past almost 2000 years.

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints believes that
yes, Peter was the first leader of the the Christian church,
but that after the original 12 apostles and other disciples
were martyred or died naturally that the membership of the
church slowly began falling away from the original teachings
of Jesus Christ and that the power and authority to act in
the name of Jesus Christ was removed from the earth–the
great apostasy. Hence, we had the Dark Ages and then the
reformation where “protesters” like Martin Luther broke away
from the Roman Catholic church and began searching for the
orignial truths. Hence, all the “protestant” religions.

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is not a
protestant religion. We believe that the gospel of Jesus
Christ needed to be restored to the earth in its original
form. We believe that the gospel was restored through the
Prophet Joseph Smith, and that the power and authority to
govern and act in the name of Jesus Christ was first restored
through Joseph Smith and has been passed down through an
unbroken chain of prophets since Joseph’s martrydom.

There are many similarities in our doctrine, but I have come
to know that the apostolic authority currently in force on
the earth comes through the prophet of the Church of Jesus
Christ of latter-day Saints.

**This isn’t something to be intellectually debated. This is
something that is learned by studying the teachings of the
church and by praying about them. **

Many churches contain truth, and many people of all different
faiths–Jews, Moslems, Christians, Hindues, etc. pray
to “God” and receive answers to prayers. But, The Church of
Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints contains the fullness of
the gospel.

I don’t say that arrogantly–it is something I have come to
know with all my heart through years of prayer, sacrifice,
and also pain as some friends have rejected me for my beliefs
and some family members have scorned me.

But, I also have incredible peace. When I get down on my
knees to pray I know exactly who I am talking with, I have
received answers to prayers, witnessed miracles, and received
incredible comfort when I most needed it.

Thank you for inviting me to mass. I do attend once in a
while with my family–I planned my Mom’s funeral mass with
the priest and gave the eulogy, I did a reading for both my
Dad’s and my sister’s wedding masses, I am there for first
communions, baptisms, etc. of various family members.

But, every time I go to mass it is reconfirmed to me that I
have been obedient to what the Lord expects of me, and I’m
always glad to go back to The Church of Jesus Christ of
latter-day Saints."
 
Ask for a biblical basis for believing in the idea of a “great apostasy” in which the entire church would apostasize and effectively disappear for 1800 years.

“23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24] As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,
30] because we are members of his body.
31] “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church” Eph 5

How do you reconcile this with a theology that says Christ essentially stepped aside and allowed Satan to rape His church?

"18] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” Mt 28

Where is the “great apostasy” in that?

Incidentally, the idea that the church corrupted doctrine early on, necessesitating God’s sending a new prophet to straighten the record out is not new or unique to Joseph Smith. Mohommad, “the prophet” of Islam, makes basically the same argument. Ellen G. White similarly claimed to be the prophet setting things right in starting the SDA’s. In the last century, Edgar Cayce “the sleeping prophet” made similar claims. If the underlying hypothesis - a supposed “great apostasy” - is believed to be true, how can we be sure which “prophet” straightening things out is the right one? “**by studying the teachings of the
church and by praying about them.”??? **Apparently, millions of people have done just that and come to radically different answers. Yet they can’t all be true, because they differ dramatically in what they teach to be true. At best, only one of them is true, and the rest are demonic in origin - the “prophets” being mislead by Satan, and misleading others away from the true faith. Interestingly, the ONLY thing all these “prophets” agree on is the “great apostasy” - that the Catholic Church is to be abandoned. Funny that Satan would want that, if the “great apostasy” is true 🙂
 
It seems that Mormons believe that the true church founded by Jesus Christ, both the one he started in Jerusalem and the one the Mormons say he also started in America, all true Christians died out and the true faith was lost ad needed to be restored but this directly contradicts the words of Jesus Christ himself in Matthew 16:18, “…I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” and in Matthew 28:20, “…lo, **I am with you alway, *even ***unto the end of the world.”

Does your friend believe the words of Jesus or the words of Joseph Smith? Ask her to pray about it.
 
Joseph Smith claimed to have received “another gospel,” the Book of Mormon, from an angel (Moroni). So, you should also ask your friend to prayfully consider Galatians 1:8, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
 
Thank you all for your help! I am new to learning about Mormonism, and normally do not take up the challenge when it comes to other “faiths” such as this. But, this person used to be Catholic, and even went to my high school about 20 years before me. Prayerfully, I feel God asking me to at least plant some seeds. I also somehow see it as futile, but I also know that God works in mysterious ways!

God bless you all for your help! I will keep you updated on her responses.

-Amy
 
Peace be with you!
40.png
Amie:
Her response is below. I would appreciate your thoughts on what a good response back to her would be. I’m especially intrigued by the fact that she always says to pray about it, but not to look at things intellectually (in bold below). Thank you in advance for your help!

"As far as the church discussion: when considering
Christianity, the question comes down to which church
currently has the power and authority to act in the name of
Jesus Christ today. There are only two possibilities: The
Roman Catholic church or The Church of Jesus Christ of latter- day Saints.
Click to expand...
No. We can’t ask which Church, because the Church of Christ is ONE. Jesus has ONE Bride. Mormonism is not the Church. Mormonism do not believe in Jesus Christ as the ONLY Lord and Savior. And this is basic.
The Roman Catholic church believes that Peter was the first
pope, ordained by Jesus Christ himself, and that that
authority has successively been passed from pope to pope for
the past almost 2000 years.

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints believes that
yes, Peter was the first leader of the the Christian church,
but that after the original 12 apostles and other disciples
were martyred or died naturally that the membership of the
church slowly began falling away from the original teachings
of Jesus Christ and that the power and authority to act in
the name of Jesus Christ was removed from the earth–the
great apostasy. Hence, we had the Dark Ages and then the
reformation where “protesters” like Martin Luther broke away
from the Roman Catholic church and began searching for the
orignial truths. Hence, all the “protestant” religions.
Click to expand...
Christians believe that JESUS in the Spirit is the ONLY Leader of the Church. The Church is built upon JESUS CHRIST, the UNIQUE SON OF GOD, the WORD OF GOD.
Although the Church passed through difficult times, yet the Holy Spirit is still in the Church, and “the gates of Hades will not overpower it” ( Matthew 16:18 )
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is not a
protestant religion. We believe that the gospel of Jesus
Christ needed to be restored to the earth in its original
form. We believe that the gospel was restored through the
Prophet Joseph Smith, and that the power and authority to
govern and act in the name of Jesus Christ was first restored
through Joseph Smith and has been passed down through an
unbroken chain of prophets since Joseph’s martrydom.
Click to expand...
“I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book” ( Revelation 22:18 )

Joseph Smith is a false prophet who came with an addition to the Word of God to change the Gospel.

Ask your friend: does she have eternal Life? Does she believe she can save herself, or that Jesus Christ is her only Savior, and that His Blood is sufficient? Does she have the Holy Spirit?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
There are only two possibilities: The
Roman Catholic church or The Church of Jesus Christ of latter- day Saints.
Click to expand...
Suggest to your friend that this means they have a grave responsibility to carefully weigh the teachings of the two faiths. So long as she is willing to take the arguments of the Catholic Church seriously (even if she doesn’t believe), there is hope that she will see the light. Every tenet of Mormonism has been adequately answered at some point by members of the true Body of Christ. Some points you may wish to bring to her attention:

In the Old Testament, if someone’s prophecy was wrong, it proved that they were a false prophet, and were put to death. How many Mormon prophets have had their prophecies proven wrong or later contradicted? (cite the famous backtracking on polygamy)

Christ promised that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church. How does this allow for an 1800 year apostasy?

St. John called Christ the only Son of God. He called God *the *Word. Mormons believe that there are three gods (the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit) who are separate beings. In addition, they believe that all men may become gods of other worlds. How does this fit with Scripture?

:bible1: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD . . .” (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29).

Mormons believe that God is not immutable (unchangeable). The fifth president (prophet) of Mormonism, Lorenzo Snow taught, “as man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.” He claimed this to be revelation. Yet Isaiah says:

:bible1: “I am God, yes, from eternity I am He” Isaiah 43:12-13

There are many more arguments against Mormonism, but these should help get you started. If your friend is willing to seriously consider the arguments, she will have little choice but to admit that Mormonism cannot be the true faith.
 
40.png
Amie:
We believe that the gospel was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, and that the power and authority to
Click to expand...
govern and act in the name of Jesus Christ was first restored

through Joseph Smith and has been passed down through an

unbroken chain of prophets since Joseph’s martrydom.

**This isn’t something to be intellectually debated. This is **

**something that is learned by studying the teachings of the **

**church and by praying about them. **

Tell your friend that J Smith based his book of Mormon on the King James version of the bible from 1611. An angel supposedly gave golden tablets with a history of the Americas to Smith which he claims he translated word for word letter for letter from the ancient texts given to him. Point out that you can take any book of Mormon and compare the text to the KG 1611 bible and the two are just about exactly the same. But there is a little mistake which helps to disprove authenticity. The authors of the KG didn’t want to have the curse of the book of revelations rain down on them by changing one word of the bible. But they had to make the bible flow smoothly in English so to facilitate this they had to add words. They distinguished their changes by making the works italicized for example Gen 1:2 “was” is added and set apart with italics. However, Smith’s book copied every one of these added words. And even footnoted the comparison at the bottom of the pages of the Book of Mormon showing the two books are the same.

A thousand year old tablet, translated by a modern day “prophet” in the 1800’s mirrors the 1611 version of the KG bible to the very added words; words that would have been added in the future from when the “ancient” tablet was alleged to have been written??

He also wasn’t a martyr. He died fighting it out with hand guns, he didn’t go to his death like a sheep to a slaughter or what ever nonsense they speak of.

Mormonism is a cult. Your friend has been sucked into a mind numbing cult. Peter tells us “Come let us reason” and instead your friend says its not something to intellectually debate? Of course not, its a weak position and indefensible. Give her a copy of Crossing the Threshold of Hope by JP II. He shows what real reasoning is all about. God doesn’t ask us to check our intellect at the altar, he asks us to embrace our human nature and challenge ourselves as we try to challenge our understanding of him and his grandeur.

She is obviously ignorant of the history of her own adopted religion. Point out she was baptized Catholic so she is still a Catholic, just not currently practicing. Tell her to come home to Rome. You are an agent of God’s grace reaching out to her.

Find out what it is she most objects to and what is most attractive about the Mormons. That will give you marching directions to gather your facts. You have to get her over the unwillingness to think. Christ was an intellectual, even as a boy he was found in the temple by Mary (its one of the Rosary mysteries too) he expects us to use our brains.
 
Hi Amie,
Try introducing your LDS friend to the Early Church Fathers. There are several good sources. I have the 3-volume set by William A. Jurgens called “The Faith of the Early Fathers”. It is great and shows beyond a doubt that the earliest Christians were Catholics, not Mormons.

Also, the book “The Mass of the Early Christians”, available from Catholic Answers, is terrific. Most of the references are taken from the Church Fathers of the first 3 centuries. It may give him an appreciation of what he left behind but never understood.

I don’t see how anyone can study patristics and not come away convinced of the truth of Catholicism.
Paul (an ex-Mormon)
 
**Drawing the Line for Mormons - A Closer Look at the LDS Church ** **MARY KOCHAN **Mormons want you to believe that they are “Christians” and that their church, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”, is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church.There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply “The Church of Jesus Christ.” Their founder, Joseph Smith claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God “forbade me to join with any of them” and “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight.” It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. While in recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, that testimony of Joseph Smith continues to be prominently featured on Mormon websites. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.

It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are “Christians” and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible however for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as “Christians”, not merely in the world religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our “separated brethren”. This is a serious error with two major consequences: First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
 
What Mormons will say they believe about God:

  1. *]We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
    *]We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus’ name.
    *]Jesus is our Savior.

    Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:

    1. *]“God the Father” to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
      *]The Mormon worships God the Father because he is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
      *]The Mormon “God the Father” had a Father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
      *]It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
      *]The Mormons have a saying: “What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become.” This is polytheism.

      Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:

      1. *]The Mormon Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father’s union with one of his many spirit wives.
        *]According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.

        Christian answer:

        1. *]Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, he did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chronicles 6.18; John 4. 24).
          *]Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mat. 1. 23; Lu. 2.30-35).
          *]God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
          *]Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (John 1. 1-18).
          *]He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
          *]He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God’s adopted children (John 3.3-17; Rom. 8.14-17,29).

          Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:

          1. *]According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
            *]They grow to spirit “adulthood”, serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
            *]The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father by “obeying the laws of the Gospel” just as the god of this planet once did.

            Christian answer:

            1. *]There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
              *]Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (John 1.18; 3.13,31; 8.23,58).
              *]Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man — not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at his resurrection.
              *]We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 John 3.3; Rom. 8.22, Phil. 3.20-21).
              *]While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rev. 5.13,14).
 
Challenging Mormons

What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:

  1. *]All are redeemed by the Savior’s self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
    *]Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
    *]Jesus is our Savior.

    Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:

    1. *]According to Mormonism, everyone and everything — all of creation — has been redeemed and therefore “saved”.
      *]His salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only — not eternal life. Eternal life is not “salvation”; it is “exaltation”.
      *]If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
      *]If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being “saved” and gaining “eternal life” are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
      *]It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between “immortality” (salvation to physical resurrection) and “eternal life” (exaltation to godhood).
      *]The Mormons have a saying: “Salvation without exaltation is damnation.”
      *]Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are “saved”, while he also believes you are damned.

      Christian answer:

      1. *]We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin — death.
        *]To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom. 6. 22, 23).
        *]Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom. 5th).
        *]Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (James 4. 6-10).

        Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:

        1. *]It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is “exaltation”, and depends upon the Mormon “Plan of Eternal Progression”.
          *]The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
          *]Mormon women married to non-Mormons (“Gentiles”) can arrange for a “temple sealing” (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
          *]Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on …

          Christian answer:

          1. *]The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
            *]When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate — taking human nature to Himself.
            *]He then did what He could not do in the form of God — He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gen. 1st-3rd; Phil. 2. 5-11).
 
Thank you all for your continued help by offering me more knowledge about Mormonism! I had taken the early responses I read yesterday, and answered my friend back. She has yet to respond. But, thanks to you, I feel more adequately prepared to answer some of her charges. I also wonder if she will just stop emailing me, since I’m challenging her faith. I also challenged her on supposedly not looking at this faith “intellectually”. God is prepared to be challenged intellectually, as well as prayerfully. I sidestepped her offer of sending missionaries to my home and am trying to focus just on her beliefs. Pray for this person, her name is Susan, that she will come back into the fullness of the faith one day.

God bless you all!
-Amy
 
I recently received a visit from the mormons.
They gave the 'ole story about how the true faith slowly died out after the apostles died.
I told them history did not confirm this and suggested they refer to this website:

newadvent.com/fathers

They haven’t gotten back to me on what they’ve learned.

futhermore…

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He was arrested in Norwich NY for one of his schemes.
No one “saw” the alleged golden tablets but him.
It is a ridiculous story and I have a hard time believing that such a large number of intelligent people would buy into it.
 
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