Help with St John of the Cross, humility

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Hello,
Im studying the Ascent on Mount Carmel, an amazing but challenging work.

St John writes,
“This he said that the truly spiritual man may understand the mystery of the gate and of the way of Christ, and so become united with God, and may know that, the more completely he is annihilated for God’s sake, according to these two parts, the sensual and the spiritual, the more completely is he united to God and the greater is the work which he accomplishes. And when at last he is reduced to nothing, which will be the greatest extreme of humility, spiritual union will be wrought between the soul and God, which in this life is the greatest and the highest state attainable. This consists not, then, in refreshment and in consolations and spiritual feelings, but in a living death of the Cross, both as to sense and as to spirit – that is, both inwardly and outwardly.”
Book 2,Chapter 7

So I think the author is saying that true faith and deepest spirtuality come primarily thru self-renunication and humbling oneself. I don’t think here is he is specifically talking of theology and philosophical speculation, but it’s a topic he frequently covers of not relying on worldly knowledge or our own understanding. He criticizes “friends of Christ” who do not know Him because they are attached to their knowlege and learning.

So what does being humble and renoucing myself look like from a theology and doctrinal point of view? I’ve been studying world religions, mysticism and theology for some time and reading this amazing book has shown me all of this is, at least partially, darkness. At the very least trying to figure out Truth on my own wasn’t working.

Is it sufficient, to find the nearest catholic priest and throw myself down in submission and blindly accept the entire authority and all teachings of the Magistrate and convert to catholicism as soon as possible?
Am I taking this too literally or simplisticly? If I am making it too black and white then how do I avoid sinful attachment to my own views? Is trusting in the opinions of others, even the Church, a sinful and obscuring attachment?

Thanks in advance for help!!
 
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I think you are over thinking this, big time.
I also think what you are trying to comprehend is like a person trying to do quantum mechanics before he has taken basic algebra. St. John of the Cross is not easy stuff even for those of us who have been diligently working at living a devout life for some time.

You’re supposed to be loving God, loving your neighbor, and following Christ’s commandments. Being part of the Catholic Church helps you with those activities. It is not a distraction away from them, any more than having a good gym with equipment for workouts and some classes, coaches and personal trainers is a distraction from your ultimate goal of becoming physically fit.

You get to where John of the Cross got by loving God and your neighbor a lot and praying a lot.

God bless
 
I agree that merely being catholic is not enough. He definitely is talking about way more than just theology, but theology is definitely part of it.

I respectfully don’t consider myself lacking in basic alegbra in terms of mysticism. Yet the wisdom of the world is but foolishness to God.
It’s a difficult paradox to renounce one’s own understanding yet faith requires some understanding. I’m stuck in that paradox I think.
 
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MysticMonist said:
So what does being humble and renoucing myself look like from a theology and doctrinal point of view?
Click to expand...
Okay, so St. John of the Cross can probably be classified in the heights of mystical theology. You must understand that he is not approaching the subject of humility from logical and theological beginnings and arriving at a conclusion, but rather is imparted knowledge about God through the Holy Spirit and is attempting to explain that knowledge in theological terms. Mysiticism in practice must always lead toward a simpler and more profound relationship with God. This is where the criticism of theological ‘friends of Christ’ come from. They are stuck in their intellect and do not seek to journey into the simplification found in enacting that theology.

I think my personal motto may help you on this journey of humility and renouncing yourself:

“Only my faults are my own. All else is God’s!”

In the realization that all that is good in your life is not your own, but the Lords, we always tend toward simplification in the Lord. We revel in the good works that He does within the world through us and so more closely unite ourselves to Him. In doing this, we eventually come to embrace the participation in our Lord’s passion and suffering just as readily as we do His Resurrection and glory. We literally die to ourselves, because we see that we no longer live, but it is Christ that lives through us.
 
That’s a really great response!!! Thank you. Good to keep in mind.

Perhaps I was unclear and a little bit of my past journey would be helpful. Ive been studying kabbalah and sufism/Baha’i mysticism for several years even dabbeling in semi-occult stuff. I’ve tried desperately to find Truth either by reason and theology or thru mystical insight. But I think St John is right that my attachment to my understanding is exactly why I can’t have knowledge and faith; only feint and sporadic Illumination. It’s why every religion seems both right and wrong and I can never stick with it.

Of course, St John is talking of many attachments not just theology and a self renunciatuon and humility that involves our whole lives, not just theology or church affiliation. But we each have our favorite sins and one of my is heresy (relying on my own flawed reason and insight).

Does that help with what I’m asking?
 
We must always approach faith seeking understanding. We must always desire to know more about God, to have a more intimate relationship with Him, but faith always needs to come first. Often, while we may know the theological reasoning behind what we believe, it is only after we experience it that we come to understand.

Just a side note. I would advise you to stay away from the occult. In the course of my ministry I have only seen horrible things come out of it. One such case was a confirmed case of demonic obsession (physical assault of a demon on a human) stemming from a simple palmistry session. Satan wraps lies in truth to the determent of the human soul.
 
MysticMonist said:
Hello,
Im studying the Ascent on Mount Carmel, an amazing but challenging work.

St John writes,
“This he said that the truly spiritual man may understand the mystery of the gate and of the way of Christ, and so become united with God, and may know that, the more completely he is annihilated for God’s sake, according to these two parts, the sensual and the spiritual, the more completely is he united to God and the greater is the work which he accomplishes. And when at last he is reduced to nothing, which will be the greatest extreme of humility, spiritual union will be wrought between the soul and God, which in this life is the greatest and the highest state attainable. This consists not, then, in refreshment and in consolations and spiritual feelings, but in a living death of the Cross, both as to sense and as to spirit – that is, both inwardly and outwardly.”
Book 2,Chapter 7

So I think the author is saying that true faith and deepest spirtuality come primarily thru self-renunication and humbling oneself. I don’t think here is he is specifically talking of theology and philosophical speculation, but it’s a topic he frequently covers of not relying on worldly knowledge or our own understanding. He criticizes “friends of Christ” who do not know Him because they are attached to their knowlege and learning.

So what does being humble and renoucing myself look like from a theology and doctrinal point of view? I’ve been studying world religions, mysticism and theology for some time and reading this amazing book has shown me all of this is, at least partially, darkness. At the very least trying to figure out Truth on my own wasn’t working.

Is it sufficient, to find the nearest catholic priest and throw myself down in submission and blindly accept the entire authority and all teachings of the Magistrate and convert to catholicism as soon as possible?
Am I taking this too literally or simplisticly? If I am making it too black and white then how do I avoid sinful attachment to my own views? Is trusting in the opinions of others, even the Church, a sinful and obscuring attachment?

Thanks in advance for help!!
Click to expand...
Well, we must, of necessity, start somewhere, seeking a voice that hopefully knows the truth as we come to acknowledge that we , at least, don’t. Catholic knowledge, Catholic thought, Catholic mysticism, Catholic theology in general run wide and deep; a vast wealth of experience underlies the life of the Church. The pursuit of perfection is at the heart of the Christian life, or is supposed to be, and St John of the Cross certainly can lay claim to pursuing it, and finding it to the extent possible here on earth, better than anyone else, IMO. But don’t convert until you’re convinced, and try St John’s approach in any case if you’re willing to go to that extreme. I would tend to think that, by giving up much he gained more, more light, less darkness. Self-mortification makes no sense if done only for the sake of losing, of ending up with less in the end, as if austerity and stoicism were the height of Christian aspirations. Happiness is actually that height.
 
Thank you, fhansen, your advice has always been spot on.
 
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Maybe I should have said esoteric more than occult, I was referring to the farther extremes of kabbalah, particularly angelic grimoires. Something I know many of you here might consider occult. I was invoking (thru a vision not a summoning) an angel and as they stood before I felt accused on heresy. It definitely shook me up.
 
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I think if you walk up to a Catholic priest and “throw [yourself] down in submission” he may have second thoughts about admitting you to his RCIA Program. It’s a bit dramatic.
 
Yeah, good point.
I think in reading this amazing mystical work that was my first reaction to seek humilty thru the nearest Catholic church and adopt it completely and blindly. But as all you have pointed out, that isn’t how it works. A priest would want me to examine the teachings of the church not just blindly accept them wholesale.

Humility is definitely key to spirtuality and is for me personally a stumbling block and virtue I need to cultivate in order to get anywhere further in my faith. But as Mark 18 says no one but God is good. Only to God should I submit myself and to the workings of the Holy Spirit in the church in general. I should submit to the Creeds yes, but not necessarily the whole catcheism.
 
I suspect most priests would not be so interest in your entire belief system or whether you “submit” to the entire catechism. Judging other’s orthodoxy is not their primary function in the church.
 
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