Help!

[brotherhrolf]

Of course they weren’t

And, many as I recall, would fit the buzz words of a well-known car commercial…

zoom, zoom…

That was no secret. It was well known in my high school which parishes had the shortest Masses. Many of those parishes continued the tradition well into the 70s. I can name two parishes in the Lakefront area of New Orleans when I was in college in the early 70s whose vigil Masses on Saturday afternoon were under 25 minutes.

 

[grotto]

Just to join in the conversation - The Mass was not messed around with AT ALL - you could count on it being all parts and
reverant. What a wonderful prayer time that was - I’m talking about the 40’s and 50’s. These years seem to be the ones that
the mod, liberal, modernists seem to use as hateful examples of everything wrong with the Catholic Church. Well, it just ain’t so.
Latin responses were done in deep prayer mode. We knew the Latin and what it meant. The translation was right beside the Latin to help one. I’m talking about using a St. Jospeh Daily Missal prior to 1960. So there you have it!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Mercy me, am I hearing that not all of the Latin masses were the same.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Deacon Ed: I went to Mass in Grand Isle, Houma, Thibodaux, Raceland and Waveland when I was a boy. It was the same Mass with congregational response as it was in any other parish in metro New Orleans. Are you saying that it wasn’t so in your parish growing up? DW grew up in Prairieville and went to Mass there and here in Baton Rouge and says it was the same way. All of these areas (except Waveland) were all part of the the Archdiocese of New Orleans at that time. It would seem to me that it was archdiocesan praxis.

The only time I ever heard a schola was at the Masses we attended at St. Joseph’s Abbey on altar boy picnics each summer.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Of course they weren’t

And, many as I recall, would fit the buzz words of a well-known car commercial…

zoom, zoom…

I have heard that there was a rule someplace that the mass should take at least 10 minutes. I participated in several that didn’t meet that minimum.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Deacon Ed: I went to Mass in Grand Isle, Houma, Thibodaux, Raceland and Waveland when I was a boy. It was the same Mass with congregational response as it was in any other parish in metro New Orleans. Are you saying that it wasn’t so in your parish growing up? DW grew up in Prairieville and went to Mass there and here in Baton Rouge and says it was the same way. All of these areas (except Waveland) were all part of the the Archdiocese of New Orleans at that time. It would seem to me that it was archdiocesan praxis.

The only time I ever heard a schola was at the Masses we attended at St. Joseph’s Abbey on altar boy picnics each summer.

I grew up in another diocese north of New Orleans. but what I am saying is that with the Latin mass there were abuses which many of those who want the TLM seem to forget. You even chronicled some for the Saturday mass in your prior post. thats all I am saying. When I was in the seminary at Notre Dame in New Orleans, I was a part of the schola cantorum. i am well familiar with the solemnity of the masses from these. as we sang and gave concerts at St. Louis Cathedral, now Basicila. This was in the 1960 - 1964 time frame for my Junior and Senior years in college (Philosophy) and two years Theology, prior to my leaving.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[brotherhrolf]

Deacon Ed: I didn’t observe any of those abuses in either of the two parishes in which I grew up or in any of the others I mentioned visiting. But I knew they existed via my fellow classmates at a certain Catholic boys high school in NO starting in 1964.

I had the example of my own pastor, Father B when I was an altar boy at that very time. They had split my parish up and formed a new parish. Daily Mass was at 6 am and since the church hadn’t been built, Mass was held in the living room of the house that Father B had rented in my subdivision. (We used the local public gym on Sundays). I rode my bike to get there. Father never rushed Mass even though many times it was just he and I present.

So while I was aware that there were abuses, I never saw them. In 25 years of service to HMC as a cathedral chorister, I have seen them.

OK, but my question to you was this. You have an excellent idea of the status of the Mass when and where I grew up. I am hearing on this thread that my experience may have been exceptional in that the dialogue Mass was not the norm. Was the archdiocese out of the ordinary back then?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

my question to you was this. You have an excellent idea of the status of the Mass when and where I grew up. I am hearing on this thread that my experience may have been exceptional in that the dialogue Mass was not the norm. Was the archdiocese out of the ordinary back n?

From my memory, the major churches in NO had no problems. Certainly none at St. Louis, nor at Notre Dame, nor Jesuit on Barrone St. There were some in outlying parishes as recounted by some of the seminarians at Notre Dame. While in the minor seminary,(which I entered in 1956 as a junior in high school) I certainly witnessed abuses during of all things the priests retreat for my diocese. (I am purposefully not naming it) As seminarians we would serve the mass for them and some were as short as 12-15 minutes. But this was not every priest nor in every parish, but they did take place. I know of no diocese/archdiocese where abuses did not take place. I honestly do not remember any dialogue masses, as I believe these may have started around 1964 or 65, after I left the seminary. Where I went to Church in Texas, it was at a major Church run by a religious order. Rarely do you find abuses with them. I think what we are each recalling was separated by a 10 ± year time frame, and at that time many changes were taking place and could definitely make a different impression on a young person. You seem to have had a good solid Church experience. What we should all do, is not dwell on the past problems, which are exactly that, i.e., past. We should all strive to make our masses the best possible, and not criticize TLM or NO or whichever a person likes, as that is certainly subjective, as the mass in either form, is infinite in merit.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[rwoehmke]

In my two parishs, 1942 to 1954 we had early morning low Masses with two altar boys and two candles, no singing. Some later Masses were 4 altar boys, six candles and an organist/choir person who sang the responses. During WW II in a Detroit Parish, the daily Mass for school kids was sung by the school kids using St. Basil’s Hymn Book. Plenty of Latin. Early Sunday Masses followed the same low Mass format, but the School Kids Sunday Mass at 9:00 was sung by the kids. We sat with our grade mates and Sister had a clicker. I don’t remember when we got the bilingual Sunday Missal.If the school day Mass was a High Mass with Black Vestments we sang it all including the back and forth Dias Zeri (phonetic spelling.).I can still sing the first three or four stanzas from memory. This was in the Archdiocese of Detroit. I hadn’t heard the term “dialogue Mass” until after Vatican II…

 

[geezerbob]

Of course they weren’t

And, many as I recall, would fit the buzz words of a well-known car commercial…

zoom, zoom…

Fr. Nick, RIP, my cousin, was even referred to by Bishop Baker at his funeral as “Quick Nick.” Msgr. Kaminer at St. Joe’s would say the 6:30 a.m. mass in 20 minutes.

 

[ethelzguy]

Fr. Nick, RIP, my cousin, was even referred to by Bishop Baker at his funeral as “Quick Nick.” Msgr. Kaminer at St. Joe’s would say the 6:30 a.m. mass in 20 minutes.

This is so funny. So many threads here seem to over-romanticize the ol’ Latin Mass. Glad to see that some of us remember how it “really” was.

 

[LRThunder]

This is so funny. So many threads here seem to over-romanticize the ol’ Latin Mass. Glad to see that some of us remember how it “really” was.

Based on one priest?

 

[ethelzguy]

Based on one priest?

Based on many priests over the years. I’ve been around for a few…

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not denigrating the ol’ Latin Mass, I’m just pointing out that we all tend to romanticize the “good old days”, just like my old '49 Ford, and a root beer at Dog-n-Suds.



And, the more I think about it, COTT at “the rail” really WAS faster than standing CITH. At least it was with the priests I was around. An altar boy had to be fast on his feet.

 

[lak611]

In my two parishs, 1942 to 1954 we had early morning low Masses with two altar boys and two candles, no singing. Some later Masses were 4 altar boys, six candles and an organist/choir person who sang the responses. During WW II in a Detroit Parish, the daily Mass for school kids was sung by the school kids using St. Basil’s Hymn Book. Plenty of Latin. Early Sunday Masses followed the same low Mass format, but the School Kids Sunday Mass at 9:00 was sung by the kids. We sat with our grade mates and Sister had a clicker. I don’t remember when we got the bilingual Sunday Missal.If the school day Mass was a High Mass with Black Vestments we sang it all including the back and forth Dias Zeri (phonetic spelling.).I can still sing the first three or four stanzas from memory. This was in the Archdiocese of Detroit. I hadn’t heard the term “dialogue Mass” until after Vatican II…

My mom went to Catholic school in the 1940’s. She does not remember ever being at a dialog Mass. She did sing in the choir at the High Mass on Sunday when she was in school. All of the school children were required to do so, except for the older boys who could not sing due to their voices still changing. One of the sisters was the organist and choir director. My late father said that it was the same in his childhood parish.

 

[elts1956]

Deacon Ed, I bet we have some of the people confused with our making posts back to back. For all of you who do not know, there are two of us. Deacon Ed from California, and me, Deacon Ed B from Texas.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Thanks for the clarification. But now I don’t know which one of you I have PMd and which one I haven’t.:crying:

 

[elts1956]

Hello Brotherhoff. I was in Grade School in the 40s and 50s. I sang in the choir at all of the daily Masses, so I can’t remember if the congregation said the responses during Mass at all, or we in the choir were the only ones responding, but I definitely remember responding to the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei in Latin. Also the response Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. (e.g. Offertory, Secret, Preface). I too remember many of them in Latin.

So you are not totally alone.

 

[bpbasilphx]

the people sang the parts of the Mass in plainsong which we would have normally recited in Latin at a High Mass.

Tests were never recited at a High Mass. That’s why it was called a “High” Mass–because it was done in a high, i.e., sung, voice.

 

[PrayforMallory]

This is so funny. So many threads here seem to over-romanticize the ol’ Latin Mass. Glad to see that some of us remember how it “really” was.

It’s so weird hearing the complaints about the Tridentine Mass as it was before Vat II. I don’t doubt them, cause I wasn’t around then, but apparently what I’m experiencing is a good bit different from what some of you guys experienced.

For one, I think what we go to what may be a “Dialogue Mass,” in that the congregation chants responses (Et Cum Spiritu Tuo, Habemus ad Dominum, etc.) and also sings along with the choir during the Gloria, Credo, etc. I just assumed that was how it was always done. Was that an uncommon thing before the reforms?

Also, the time length. It’s blowing my mind that even saying that Mass is possible under a half an hour. We went to Church tonight, and counting confession, Mass, and the prayers to Our Lady we spent three hours in Church. The Church had over 100 people on a Friday night.

How is it that they could say Mass so quickly? Furthermore, why did they rush it like that?

I wish you guys could hear the music at this ICKSP parish. Every artistic element of the liturgy, the ICKSP priests are masters of. I’m no authority, but I’d stake my entire measly wages that they have the best liturgy on Earth, possibly of all time (for a parish of that size).

So strange hearing about how it used to be. I guess the analogy of a 57 Chevy kinda rings true. If it’s still there, it’s in mint condition.

 

[ethelzguy]

It’s so weird hearing the complaints about the Tridentine Mass as it was before Vat II. I don’t doubt them, cause I wasn’t around then, but apparently what I’m experiencing is a good bit different from what some of you guys experienced.

That’s because what you experience today is not the same as when the old Latin Mass was commonplace. Don’t confuse realistic recollections with “complaints”.

For one, I think what we go to what may be a “Dialogue Mass,” in that the congregation chants responses (Et Cum Spiritu Tuo, Habemus ad Dominum, etc.) and also sings along with the choir during the Gloria, Credo, etc. I just assumed that was how it was always done. Was that an uncommon thing before the reforms?

Also, the time length. It’s blowing my mind that even saying that Mass is possible under a half an hour. We went to Church tonight, and counting confession, Mass, and the prayers to Our Lady we spent three hours in Church. The Church had over 100 people on a Friday night.

What you are experiencing here appears to be a small group involved in deep devotion. This is NOT the same thing as when, back in the day, parishes were turning out anywhere from 5-8 Sunday Masses in Latin, with 400 people at each one. There WAS a sense of urgency, to keep the schedule and avoid mayhem in the parking lots.

How is it that they could say Mass so quickly? Furthermore, why did they rush it like that?

See above

I wish you guys could hear the music at this ICKSP parish. Every artistic element of the liturgy, the ICKSP priests are masters of. I’m no authority, but I’d stake my entire measly wages that they have the best liturgy on Earth, possibly of all time (for a parish of that size).

So strange hearing about how it used to be. I guess the analogy of a 57 Chevy kinda rings true. If it’s still there, it’s in mint condition.

And back then, it was commonplace and taken for granted.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .

For one, I think what we go to what may be a “Dialogue Mass,” in that the congregation chants responses (Et Cum Spiritu Tuo, Habemus ad Dominum, etc.) and also sings along with the choir during the Gloria, Credo, etc. I just assumed that was how it was always done. Was that an uncommon thing before the reforms?

It was just getting started in my area - Massachusetts when the mass changed.

Also, the time length. It’s blowing my mind that even saying that Mass is possible under a half an hour. We went to Church tonight, and counting confession, Mass, and the prayers to Our Lady we spent three hours in Church. The Church had over 100 people on a Friday night.

How is it that they could say Mass so quickly? Furthermore, why did they rush it like that? . . . .

I have attended masses that took less than ten minutes. The Latin was just ripped off with no attempt at any intonation. I have heard the Easter Exsultet done in one breath - literally. It doesn’t seem possible, but it was.

One of the great advantages of going to the vernacular is that the celebrant must pay at least minimal attention to what he is asying.