Heretical Priest to Officiate at wedding

  • Thread starter Thread starter CARose
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CARose

Guest
Hi,

Some of you may have seen my thread “my brother marrying outside the Church”. He’s now open to the idea of at least looking into what it would take to be married within the Church while doing the ceremony as planned in Belize.

Here’s the question. My mother’s cousin, a very nice person, is also unfortunately a priest of questionable faith in the magesterium and authority of the Church. I have not received a response from the Diocese in Belize to reply and let me know if they can provide a Priest for my brothers wedding.

I’m considering approaching my “uncle” to see if he would be willing to officiate. How bad an idea is this?

Mind you, his ideas, from what little I’ve seen (including a book he’s written and the fact he’s apparently been kicked out of two diocese for his liberal views), are pretty out there and I’m the only devout Catholic in the family. When I brought my daughter to meet him (having warned her, although she’s well catechised, but I didn’t want her confused) I thought he might be on best behavior, however he was exactly the opposite, perhaps even trying to bate me. This behavior isn’t what qualifies him as a “nice person”, rather the fact he strayed from the teachings of the church was because of the pain he felt when he saw my mothers pain after her divorce and felt she was disenfranchised by the Church. He doesn’t understand that pain is sometimes necessary for our sanctification. So he seeks to spare those he pastors from pain.

Anyways, I’m wondering if it’s absurd for me to even consider inviting him. Why would I? Because he’s family. I feel a need to reach out to him and help my deceased mother save her much loved cousin, who got into this mess in part due to his love for her. I’m hoping that it might be good for him to spend some time seeing just what happens when families split-up and they don’t seek the annulment required by the Church. There is no healing, which is readily apparent when one meets my father, who never got over the divorce from 1977.

Please tell me:

  1. *] I’m crazy to even consider it, he’ll further confuse your family and who’s to say this would even be a valid marriage if he’s so heretical.

    *] Why not, he’s family, he’s Catholic and the marriage would be valid.

    *]Other - please explain.

    Thanks

    CARose
 
I’m crazy to even consider it, he’ll further confuse your family and who’s to say this would even be a valid marriage if he’s so heretical.

There’s your answer. You should put God before family. The fact that he’s your uncle (technically he’s a first cousin once removed) should not ignore the fact that he’s a heretic.
I don’t know if you’d like to do anything about this but if he’s been kicked out of two diosese then maybe the issue should go to a higher authority.
 
CARose,

If he has been kicked out of two dioceses you may want to try to find out why it happened. I’m not trying to scare you, but it could be for many reasons. Does he say Mass? Is he assigned to a parish? Is he practicing chastity? In your opinion is scandalous to those around him? Ask him how he feels about abortion and gay marriage. In other words, do some probing so you can make an informed decision. You never now, he may have been defrocked. Do some research before you make a decision.
 
CARose -

I’m not advocating one way of the other, I don’t think. You have family considerations to keep in mind as well as theological ones.

I do want to provide you with some info that may help, depending on what your and your familiy’s needs and desires are.

It sounds to me like you might be worried about such things as sacramental validity, etc. **If ** the priest to whom you refer is a validly ordained priest, then perhaps the following information may be of some value to you in your decision making process.

Donatism was the error taught by Donatus, bishop of Casae Nigrae that the effectiveness of the sacraments depends on the moral character of the minister. In other words, if a minister who was involved in a serious enough sin were to baptize a person, that baptism would be considered invalid.

The Donatist issue was raised at several councils and finally submitted to Emporer Constantine in 316. In each case the consecration of bishop Caecilian was upheld. However, persecution fuels emotions and by 350 the Donatists had gained many converts and outnumbered the Orthodox in Africa. But it was the apologetic by Augustine that turned the tide against the Donatist movement which eventually died out in the next century.

The problem with Donatism is that no person is morally pure. The effectiveness of the baptism or administration of the Lord’s supper does not cease to be effective if the moral character of the minister is in question or even demonstrated to be faulty. Rather, the sacraments are powerful because of what they are, visible representations of spiritual realities. God is the one who works in and through them and He is not restricted by the moral state of the administrant.

Behind their [Donatists’] objection lay the heresy, familiar to Montanism and Novatian, that only those living a blameless life belonged in the church, and, further, that the validity of any sacrament depended upon the personal worthiness of the priest administering it.

This would have a certain application in the case of those who do not “teach” 100% what the Church teaches, as well, I would think. Being blameless in the eyes of the Lord or of the Magisterium is not a prerequisite for the valid administration of the sacraments. There may be other impediments I don’t know of and cannot address. But perhaps this information can provide you with some ease of mind, should you be leaning in that direction.

I hope all works out well in this endeavor!
 
why are you planning your brother’s wedding? isn’t that up to his bride and himself?
 
Adam Costanzo:
I’m crazy to even consider it, he’ll further confuse your family and who’s to say this would even be a valid marriage if he’s so heretical.
Click to expand...
The Sacrament of Marriage is confected by the two persons being Married. They each confect the Sacrament upon each other.

The priest or deacon acts as the offical witness of the Church, but only as a witness to the Sacrament.

The Form of the Sacrament between 2 Catholics requires that it be witnessed by a priest, deacon or a layperson specifically designated by the Ordinary, but that requirement is met here.

This priest’s heretical views will not stop this Marriage from being Sacramentally valid.

(if it is wise, to have this priest preside is another matter 😉 )
 
40.png
CARose:
Hi,

Some of you may have seen my thread “my brother marrying outside the Church”. He’s now open to the idea of at least looking into what it would take to be married within the Church while doing the ceremony as planned in Belize.

Here’s the question. My mother’s cousin, a very nice person, is also unfortunately a priest of questionable faith in the magesterium and authority of the Church. I have not received a response from the Diocese in Belize to reply and let me know if they can provide a Priest for my brothers wedding.

CARose
Click to expand...
CARose, I am somewhat confused. The Diocese of Belize would not answer you about providing a priest. The norm in the Catholic Church anywhere in the world is for the couple to get married in the parish of the bride. The Parish Priest would be the person to talk to about the arrangements. It is also usual for a Pre-Cana course. Here in Trinidad, for example, it is necessary to talk with the priest at least 6 months prior to the proposed wedding. This gives time for the pre-Cana course, and any other arrangements.

It is possible to get permission for another priest to perform the ceremony. However, if that priest is from outside the Diocese, it may be necessary to obtain permission from the Bishop.

I am also a little confused about this - you said “while doing the ceremony as planned in Belize.” What does this mean? Is he planning to have some other type of ceremony too? That would not be at all acceptable to the Church. Only one Wedding ceremony - in the Church.

Why on earth would you want a “heretical priest” involved? Just because he is a priest? Better a total stranger who is in good standing with the Church.

My :twocents:
 
Thank you all for your time and feedback. As always I am humbled to see how poorly I communicate what is happening, as demonstrated in your questions.

Let me start with Servant1

You seemed to best grasp where I am coming from, and I guess I knew what you’re saying regarding Donasticism, I just needed to be assured that the Sacrament would be valid, for without that, all is for naught. So thank you for you most wonderfully complete answer on that aspect of my concern.

That brings me to Brendan - who again returns to the important question - Would this be Wise? An important part of the consideration, hence I come to discuss it with you.

Bob and Adam raise additional questions and concerns about the heretical nature of my First Cousin once removed (hereafter referred to as my “Uncle” since this is the title my parents asked us to use for all adult friends of their generation).

Let’s see if I can answer them without taking the thread off topic:

I have looked into why he’s no longer in the two diocese where he was removed. However, my “looking into it” has only consisted of first learning of this problematic priest from a friend (1 year before I even realized he was related) and then after realizing the connection when we spoke for the first time in 12 years, I did some internet research. It was from there that I came to learn that he’d be “kicked out” of two diocese. I also spoke with the Secretary of the Bishop (a priest who led the pilgrimage during which I first heard of the heretical priest / author). I don’t believe I asked the Bishop’s secretary for specifics regarding the Diocesean position on him, rather I told him of the connection I had just discovered and that I felt, since my mother had passed, that my situation had been divinely guided to help address the primary heresy that had led this family member astray. (The priest from the Bishop’s office knew the details, having briefly been my confessor). He wasn’t complementary of my Uncle, and I simply asked that he pray for him, as he obviously has lost his way. I also told him that I had not shared with our mutual friends that I was related but that I hoped that they could learn to forgive him, for their own sake more than anything else (after many years they still harbor anger towards him).

He is a member of a religious order and he does continue to serve Mass on at least an occasional basis. He also serves on a regular, although not full time basis at a parish near where he is assigned at a retreat center. He is a retreat master and Spiritual Advisor (this concerns me).

I attended one Mass where he officiated and it was illicit, if not invalid (I’ve spoken to my very faithful Pastor regarding the specifics). He had a discussion regarding Church Authority and the Hierarchy with me in front of my 12 yr old daughter, although he wasn’t being absolutely wrong in the points he was making he wasn’t as respectful of either as I would expect from a Priest. Such a discussion, in front of my daughter and his willingness to disparage the Church before an impressionable child is of concern to me. It leads to the foundation of my concern regarding the wisdom of having him officiate and be present at my behest with family who have fallen from the Church.

You ask if he’s practicing Chastity, I don’t know. Abortion and Gay Marriage, I also don’t know. Defrocked, no, he’s not been defrocked and the former Provincial from his order is the head of the retreat house where he resides. On my second visit, my uncle had to leave early, but my daughter and I stayed long enough to join in the private Mass for the residents at the Retreat Center. This was a number of priests, a brother and several community members (laity). When it came time for communion, they passed the host and Chalice from one person to the next, leaving my daughter to serve communion to me. :nope:

This alone would be cause for concern, but not a label of Heretic. The book he wrote however continues to be sold at the bookstore of this retreat house. If we lived in the day of lists of books not to be read by good Catholics, I believe it would be on that list. It insists that the Catholic Church has no place insisting on Annulments, and that they can be conducted through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He offered hundreds of such annulments, making the situation worse in a number of second marriages. But this would be the topic of another thread, so enough said on that for now.

Cont…
 
cont…

Joan and Annie ask interesting questions. Why am I involved in this and am I proceeding correctly anyways?

Annie, I’m involved because my brother was planning to have a purely civil, destination wedding in Belize. He invited me to attend and while I love him dearly and am thrilled that he has found the Catholic woman with whom he would like to spend the rest of his life, I am having a hard time with attending a wedding that states, “we will be living the remainder of our lives in an invalid marriage”. I told him so, in much more gentle terms, immediately when he called to tell me that they were engaged (finally, as I’d also been the only one to tell them that living together is still wrong).

After several months of loving conversations, he has agreed that it works for him to have me look into what it would take to have a priest officiate. He and his fiance will then make the final call. In the very first conversation, he said he’d ask Fr “uncle” and told me which of our Aunts was in touch with him. That was a Thurs, by the next evening, I was at the retreat house talking to this long lost relative.

Joan, I hope that also answers many of your questions.

I didn’t say that the Diocese of Belize wouldn’t respond, merely that they haven’t done so as yet. I sent them e-mail. Not everyone is comfortable using e-mail, figuring if it’s important, I’ll send it via post and they can answer in that manner as well. (I’m way over snail-mail). I’ve recommended Pre-Cana to them; marriage within the Brides Parish is not a REQUIREMENT, believe me, I live in a destination community, my priest knows this rule quite well.

The wedding is planned for early July, so they still have over 6 months, but only barely. I continue to work quickly to ensure that not create an impasse. I’d like to nail down a solution that makes some sense before it’s too late. If they encounter too many roadblocks, I fear they will continue with Civil over Church wedding and I want to do what I can to prevent that.

BTW, my mother passed away nearly 12 yrs ago, and I am the oldest sibling.

Also BTW, my mothers divorce is what precipitated the pastoring her cousin did with these divorced catholics while getting his PhD (from a Protestant Seminary! as a priest!!) which led to his selection of a thesis, which became his book. I strongly felt my mothers hand as I was driving to visit him the first time. It all happened so incredibly quickly and yet everything that needed to fell into place, all the obsticals fell out of the way (and there were many reasons to not even consider going, but I stayed open to whatever might develop and there I was).

I know my mother loved her cousin greatly. I believe that she would desire that he be shown the true Love of the Catholic Church and drawn back into the fold of faithfulness. I first realized something was amiss in our first conversation when he started to cool off and I couldn’t figure out why. two things I’d said at approximately the time of his cooling were:

  1. *]“If it’s good enough for JPII, it’s good enough for me!”
    *]“I told her that the Catholic Church is the Fullness of the Truth and she was offended”

    He quickly worked into the conversation that he’d authored two books, so I hit amazon, looked him up and realized he was the author I’d heard of the year before.

    BTW 3 - my marriage has been affected by lack of annulment in a close and personal way, so I know the reality and importance of this Juridical aspect of the Authority of the Church.

    TMI? If so, sorry.

    Thanks again,

    CARose
 
Oh Joan, I don’t believe I finished answering you

Why invite a potentially problematic priest to officiate rather than a faithful one?
  1. I’m uncertain that there is one in the area, although I’m continuing to pursue that with the local Diocese (see above)
  2. Yes, because he’s family and because I think it’s important for him to see this family, with all our wrinkles, warts and love. I think it may be necessary for his salvation to understand how I believe God loves us and yet still allows us to suffer pain. And that the Church’s primary role is not to alleviate pain, but to ensure the salvation of Her members.
  3. Because I think it’s what my mom would want.
  4. Because I know my brother would like to honor our mother by having her cousin, whom she loved greatly, officiate.
  5. Because it would assure that the wedding be valid in the eyes of the church, and then I could go and feel I had a place and role to boot!
CARose
 
40.png
CARose:
Hi,

Please tell me:

  1. *]I’m crazy to even consider it, he’ll further confuse your family and who’s to say this would even be a valid marriage if he’s so heretical.
    *]Why not, he’s family, he’s Catholic and the marriage would be valid.
    *]Other - please explain.

    Thanks

    CARose
Click to expand...

  1. Would you invite a 3rd degree sexual predator to your wedding just becuse he or she is family?

    Why potentially tarnish the Sacrament of Marriage? Pray for his conversion. Don’t invite him and don’t have him officiate!

    God Bless you!
    Donna
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top