Historical Controversy

[atrain]

I left the catholic faith because of the priest scandal.I can not get over the fact that the church i believed in put children in harms way. I mean no disrespect what so ever.I guess why i am writing this is because my family is Catholic and i miss worshipping as a family. I guess I am looking for answers as why the Catholic church would put priests ,who the church knew committed crimes, to another church knowing this.

 

[sw85]

I left the catholic faith because of the priest scandal.I can not get over the fact that the church i believed in put children in harms way. I mean no disrespect what so ever.I guess why i am writing this is because my family is Catholic and i miss worshipping as a family. I guess I am looking for answers as why the Catholic church would put priests ,who the church knew committed crimes, to another church knowing this.

Can I ask why it matters? I’m not saying there are no answers. I’m only saying they are irrelevant to the question of whether or not one ought to be a Catholic. The relevant issues are whether Christ died for our sins and was resurrected, whether He invested St. Peter with authority to teach and bind and loose, and whether the Church is inerrant in its teachings because it is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. The scandal does not call any of these things into question.

 

[Erich]

Don’t we all believe that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9)? In the past the Church relied too heavily on viewing sexual abuse through the prism of morality (i.e. sexual abuse is a sin, abusers should be converted to a deeper life of faith, victims and the church should experience reconciliation), which led them to ignore other psychological and criminal implications of child abuse. I’m not trying to excuse inexcusable behavior, but we know now that spirituality is not enough. Similarly, leech therapy (in medicine) used to be used as an almost universal cure, but we don’t do that anymore, either.

The John Jay College of Criminal Justice of the City University of New York found that while allegations of abuse increased in the last two decades, most of the allegations reported abuse from the 1970s. According to the findings, 3,445 or 35.5% of all alleged abuse occurred during the 1970s. That time frame also accounts for 36% of the allegations made in 2002. Allegations made in the 1990s and early 2000s only accounted for 6.2% of all allegations and 2.8% of allegations made in 2002. As the study explains:When the incidents recorded in the surveys are tallied for each year of occurrence (of each incident), the resulting figure shows that 75% of the events were alleged to occur between 1960 and 1984. This result should be considered together with the declining percentage of priests ordained in each year.

Based on the available data, it would appear that the majority of the incidents of abuse occurred between 1960 and 1980.
Another telling finding:The majority of priests (56%) were alleged to have abused one victim, nearly 27% were alleged to have abused two or three victims, nearly 14% were alleged to have abused four to nine victims and 3.4% were alleged to have abused more than ten victims. The 149 priests (3.5%) who had more than ten allegations of abuse were allegedly responsible for abusing 2,960 victims, thus accounting for 26% of allegations. Therefore, a very small percentage of accused priests are responsible for a substantial percentage of the allegations.
That said, I don’t think that “[leaving] the catholic faith because of the priest scandal” was the right course of action. Yes, the Church had its Judas Iscariot, but it also had its Peter, Paul, and all the rest.

 

[atrain]

I will always believe Jesus died for our sins,that will never change. I worship in another church now. I guess why it matters to me is that the church that I grew up in and believe in contradict itself on how it handle these incidents.
What I believe in will never change just where I worship.

 

[sw85]

I will always believe Jesus died for our sins,that will never change. I worship in another church now. I guess why it matters to me is that the church that I grew up in and believe in contradict itself on how it handle these incidents.
What I believe in will never change just where I worship.

In what respect does it contradict itself?

It teaches that child molestation is wrong. It still teaches that. I see no contradiction.

Does it teach that the clergy are free from sin? No. Therefore the sins of particular clergy in no way contradict its teachings.

Meanwhile, all the claims that make the Catholic Church the one true Church are still there and still as valid as they were (however valid that might be).

You’re allowed to feel hurt that the hierarchy has done wrong. I just don’t see how that should impact one’s identification as Catholic, given that it has literally nothing to do with the issues that make the Catholic Church what it is.

 

[atrain]

I believe if you confess your sins then you are cleanse but you are still responsible for your actions. My problem is why the church would send someone,who they knew needed help,
To another Parrish and put innocent children in harms way.it is not the priests actions that made leave but the way the catholic church responded.

 

[mark_a]

I will always believe Jesus died for our sins,that will never change. I worship in another church now. I guess why it matters to me is that the church that I grew up in and believe in contradict itself on how it handle these incidents.
What I believe in will never change just where I worship.

Before you condemn the whole Church for the actions of a few, why don’t you inquire with your present church if they carry insurance to cover themselves in case someone representing your church is accused of abuse?

And if they say yes, ask them why.

If they say no. . . .

 

[Bballer32]

I believe if you confess your sins then you are cleanse but you are still responsible for your actions. My problem is why the church would send someone,who they knew needed help,
To another Parrish and put innocent children in harms way.it is not the priests actions that made leave but the way the catholic church responded.

They put him in that parish to see if he could have a change of heart or possibly surround him by other priests to help him. Most priests that responded with the abuse were then lead to phycological and spiritual help.

Now, only about 1% of all priests have abused children. The other 99% are innocent of that crime and even are disgusted with it. Also, of all of the abuses pushed againsts priests, over half of them are fake or done just because people hate the Catholic Church.

Don’t let the sins of others make you leave the Church.

 

[sw85]

I believe if you confess your sins then you are cleanse but you are still responsible for your actions. My problem is why the church would send someone,who they knew needed help,
To another Parrish and put innocent children in harms way.it is not the priests actions that made leave but the way the catholic church responded.

If you’re asking me to help you excuse this behavior, I can’t. Some behaviors don’t have an excuse.

If you’re asking me to help you understand it, well, I just did. Men sin. Priests are no exception.

Ultimately these are questions you can answer from inside the Church. Because there is no possible answer that can call into question the Church’s claims to be the one, true Church established by Christ. You should not permit the sins of men who do not claim to be sinless to drive you from Christ’s Church.

 

[Anniejoe]

atrain,

The Church officials who sent priests to other parishes were relying on the best information they had available at the time. They were told by counseling professionals that such offenses could be effectively treated and cured. We now know that pedophilia is extraordinarily difficult to treat and probably can’t be cured. How were the bishops to know that then?

Further, most of the offenses took place decades ago, and many of them were not pedophilia, but rather pederasty. Pederasty is definitely a sin, but it isn’t pedophilia. If I remember the Jay report correctly, there hasn’t been a credible new report in over a decade. So, the bishops did learn and do something as soon as they understand the true nature of the problem.

Regardless, the Catholic Church is still the true Church. The failures of certain individuals doesn’t change that.

 

[djeter]

I left the catholic faith because of the priest scandal.I can not get over the fact that the church i believed in put children in harms way. I mean no disrespect what so ever.I guess why i am writing this is because my family is Catholic and i miss worshipping as a family. I guess I am looking for answers as why the Catholic church would put priests ,who the church knew committed crimes, to another church knowing this.

I have always placed any evil, the priest scandal whatever, in context. Here is Fr. Barron reflecting on *mysterium iniquitatis *:

It is of great moment that, immediately after this extraordinary event — this constitution of the church around God’s gift of self — Jesus speaks of treachery:

“And yet behold, the hand of the one who is to betray me is with me on the table.” In the biblical reading, God’s desires have been, from the beginning, opposed. Consistently, human beings have preferred the isolation and separation of sin to the festivity of the sacred meal.

Theologians have called this anomalous tendency the *mysterium iniquitatis *(the mystery of evil), for there is no rational ground for it, no reason why it should exist. But there it stubbornly is, always shadowing the good, parasitic upon that which it tries to destroy. Therefore, we should not be too surprised that, as the sacred meal comes to its richest possible expression, evil accompanies it. Judas the betrayer expresses the *mysterium iniquitatis *with particular symbolic power, for he had spent years in intimacy with Jesus, taking in the Lord’s moves and thoughts at close quarters, sharing the table of fellowship with him, and yet he saw fit to turn Jesus over to his enemies and to interrupt the co-inherence of the Last Supper.

Those of us who regularly gather around the table of intimacy with Christ and yet engage consistently in the works of darkness are meant to see ourselves in the betrayer.

Yet here you are standing apart. Why is that atrain?

You can read more of the above at The Sacred Meal In The Life And Ministry Of Jesus

 

[SaintPatrick333]

I left the catholic faith because of the priest scandal.I can not get over the fact that the church i believed in put children in harms way. I mean no disrespect what so ever.I guess why i am writing this is because my family is Catholic and i miss worshipping as a family. I guess I am looking for answers as why the Catholic church would put priests ,who the church knew committed crimes, to another church knowing this.

My friend all you are looking at is the human element of the Church. Throughout history the human element has been flawed, sinful, at times even corrupt. Take a couple of our antipopes who were milking europe of money (to put it incredibly bluntly). Even with this going on not ONCE has any Pope in history ever taught error on matters of faith. Christ has protected His Church from the day it was officially created on Pentecost and will continue doing so until the end of time. This is what He promised. Any other faith that denies this is simply calling Christ a liar, suggesting that He contradicts Himself or flat out lied to His Church upon creating it. The scandal effected all Catholics to some degree or another but you have to look at it for what it was. Human failure. Human susceptibility to sin. Satan is always trying to attack the Church. He did a number on Her this time, at least in the public eye. Yet despite the failings of some (nowhere near the majority) clergy members who were responsible for abusing children or covering it up, despite all this, the Church has lost none of its divinity. It is still the only True Church in the world. Christ still resides within Her and comes down to us at Mass. You will never find this in another Church. Try to look at the Church as a bigger picture again and you’ll, prayerfully, understand why so many Catholics are just as strong in their faith if not stronger. Those priests and children deserve our prayers and intentions, but so do our Priests who are innocent of any and all wrongdoing who are stigmatized everywhere they go because of the actions of a few. I pray you will find your faith in Christ’s Church again my friend. You are missing out on so much!! God Bless!

 

[Dorothy]

I believe if you confess your sins then you are cleanse but you are still responsible for your actions. My problem is why the church would send someone,who they knew needed help,
To another Parrish and put innocent children in harms way.it is not the priests actions that made leave but the way the catholic church responded.

Yes, serious sin was committed by members of the Catholic Church. Some bishops thought that because of the sorrow some priests expressed that everything would be fine if they just moved them somewhere else where there would not be gossip about what happened. In the seventies, when most of this happened, those in charge were not fully aware that the abuse was a problem that needed more than “I’m sorry” from the priest, before putting him back to his priestly duties.

At times there may have been serious sin on the part of bishops who should have known better and moved priests around anyway.

Many steps have been taken in the Church to correct this situation. Please remember that the sins of the clergy does not eclipse the truth of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church is called holy because the Church is the Body of Christ and He is holy. Because some members of the Church are not holy does not mean the teachings of the Church are not true.

We have many saints! Look to Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, and the many saints!

Also, be aware that when abuse happens in the Catholic Church it makes the front page of the secular newspapers. It does not address the abuse in churches of denominations that broke away from the Catholic Church the same way. Why? Because the world hates the Catholic Church and jumps at every opportunity to make her look bad.

The Mass is still the centerpiece of our faith where we receive the Risen Christ in the Eucharist. Our Lord Jesus Christ gave the apostles the power to do this for us. Other churches do not have the fullness of the teachings we have in the Catholic Church.

 

[LilyM]

atrain,

The Church officials who sent priests to other parishes were relying on the best information they had available at the time. They were told by counseling professionals that such offenses could be effectively treated and cured. We now know that pedophilia is extraordinarily difficult to treat and probably can’t be cured. How were the bishops to know that then?

Further, most of the offenses took place decades ago, and many of them were not pedophilia, but rather pederasty. Pederasty is definitely a sin, but it isn’t pedophilia. If I remember the Jay report correctly, there hasn’t been a credible new report in over a decade. So, the bishops did learn and do something as soon as they understand the true nature of the problem.

Regardless, the Catholic Church is still the true Church. The failures of certain individuals doesn’t change that.

Put it his way - those bishops were (maybe some still are) doing no more or different than many medical boards did (maybe some still do) with doctors who abuse(d) child patients. No more (or different) than many education boards did (maybe some still do) did with teachers that abuse(d) students. There are other situations too - caters who abuse the children in their care and the like.

Now if I found out that MY local medical or education board was currently (not 20 or 30 years ago) letting abusers off the hook and transferring them from place to place - well, I might move to another area that had better policies and more rigorous enforcement of them. And I would personally be more careful of leaving my children alone with doctors or teachers.

But I wouldn’t abandon the idea of taking my children to doctors or schools altogether - that would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And given that the vast majority of doctors and teachers are good people and good role models for children, as well as providing needed services, it would be grossly unfair to tar all of them with the same brush as the few who aren’t good.

 

[Anniejoe]

Excellent point, LilyM. Further, the news media has grossly exaggerated the actual incidence of this tragedy (not that even one case is acceptable). Far more school teachers have abused children than priests have. Yet we don’t hear of people refusing to send their kids to school.

 

[JRKH]

I left the catholic faith because of the priest scandal.I can not get over the fact that the church i believed in put children in harms way. I mean no disrespect what so ever.I guess why i am writing this is because my family is Catholic and i miss worshiping as a family. I guess I am looking for answers as why the Catholic church would put priests ,who the church knew committed crimes, to another church knowing this.

The answers you seek are not simple. The Church DID make some mistakes, but not as many as the media would have you believe. For one thing. Many of these crime took place many years/decades ago when the Mental health community believed that pedophilia was curable so a priest might be pulled from service, receive treatment and returned when he was “cured”. The mental health community was wrong in their belief at that time, but the Church was acting on the best information at the time.
That is just one aspect of why this went on.
There was also, of course, sin involved - both direct and indirect.
But the question every Catholic had to ask themselves is, do I leave Peter because of Judas? Do I desert Christ’s Church when she needs good solid faithful Catholic Christians the most???

You miss worshiping as a family… Would you move to a “new family” if one of your own was convicted of a crime? Would you not rather rally around your family and event the “fallen” family member in support and try to help?

It troubles me that so many people, who believe themselves to be good Christians and good Catholics, are so willing to desert Christ and His Church over this matter. If hell is to NOT prevail over Christ’s Church then it is up to us good Catholics to stand up for Christ and for His Church. To help the great majority of good clergy to put these matters straight and to pray for and encourage good, sound vocations. Not run for the exists like the Apostles scattering at Jesus’ arrest.

I will always believe Jesus died for our sins,that will never change. I worship in another church now. I guess why it matters to me is that the church that I grew up in and believe in contradict itself on how it handle these incidents.
What I believe in will never change just where I worship.

And what do you do when that community has some scandal or trouble? Run to another? The Church is filled with sinners. Remember the old saying, the Church is not a museum for saints, it’s a hospital for sinners.
You say that your beliefs will never change, but it appears they already have.
As a Catholic you were taught that Christ is really and truly present in the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. That we receive Christ physically into us at communion. You were also taught that NO OTHER Church community possesses this (except for the Eastern Orthodox). I am assuming that you are not worshiping at an EO church.
Yet - because of the sin of a few - you have left behind Christ in the Eucharist for something less. And claim that your belief in Christ has not changed

You speak of the Church in this matter as though it is something separate from you or me, yet WE are “The Church”, the body of Christ. Your Catholic family is not guilty of this scandal, nor their pastor, nor the other people in Church on Sunday, yet by saying “The Church” contradict(ed) itself on handling this issue, you point the finger, not just at the few guilty, but at the vast majority of innocent and equally shocked members of the Church.

I’m sorry if the above sounds harsh. I do not intend it to be…But I need to ask you, and other Catholics who have left over this matter to examine your heart.
If you believe yourself to be a good Christian - and a good Catholic, then how can you desert the Church of your King and Savior when He needs all His good and Faithful disciples?
How can you desert Him who is on the Altar for you??

Please…Read the above as a plea, not as an accusation. Is the sin of a few, worth deserting Christ in the Eucharist??

Peace
James

 

[BListon]

Like the great Saint John Chrysostom said… " the road to hell is paved with the skulls of corrupt priests."… I couldn’t agree with him more. Yes, it is a disgusting immoral sin (far greater than even murder in MY opinion), but you MUST realise that there are bad apples in every bunch, but they will have answer to God themselves… the church cannot be blamed for the actions of its hypocrites.

 

[mdcpensive1]

atrain,

It seems that you put your faith in the priests and leaders instead of Christ. You must not make the decision that the Church is corrupt based on those that serve it instead of the One whose Body it is made of. The Body of Christ is the Holy body that incorporates persons who sometimes sin and fall out of closeness to the Holiness of Christ as well as those that are saintly. It is not about actions or personalities of individuals who serve as in the protestant churches. The Church Christ started and is head of is not to be destroyed by individuals that sin. It is discomforting to see those in positions of authority abuse our trust and they should be punished accordingly and justly. But the body of Christ will go on as the Church He established doing His will.

Some bishops did not have all the information to make informed decisions and some were just bad administrators in my opinion. However, please think about what you are missing. It is not just “having church” with family which is good, but partaking in the once and for all sacrifice that is re-presented as a source of Grace not available in other types of services. I for one need all the Graces that God offers me and I can’t see myself missing out on what He offers in His special liturgies.
mdcpensive1

 

[danserr]

I will always believe Jesus died for our sins,that will never change. I worship in another church now. I guess why it matters to me is that the church that I grew up in and believe in contradict itself on how it handle these incidents.
What I believe in will never change just where I worship.

You seem to be saying that you cannot believe in the Church because the men who lead it are sinful like the rest of us. But obviously this is just what we should expect. Peter, to whom Jesus committed the headship of the Church on Earth, denounced Jesus three times and screwed up in multiple ways. Paul persecuted and tried to wipe out Christianity. Like one writer says, Jesus taught his followers a prayer that included them asking God for forgiveness; obviously, he though that they needed it and would continue needing it."

So, I don’t see that the fact that Church leaders are sinful men like the rest of us should be a reason to follow that Church, especially as it is the one established by Jesus while he walked the earth.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Originally Posted by atrain
“I will always believe Jesus died for our sins,that will never change. I worship in another church now. I guess why it matters to me is that the church that I grew up in and believe in contradict itself on how it handle these incidents.
What I believe in will never change just where I worship.”

You should think about how God called His Church into being. He chose a people (the Hebrews) to be His people so that He could form them through covenants. In the last and final covenant which He established when here on earth he gave authority to the twelve, more than one of which sinned ie Peter and Judas. We don’t condemn the whole Church because of them. In the old covenant, David, the line of Jesus, sinned big time and still God said he was one after His own heart. When Solomon died, his two sons led Israel very badly and yet God kept the covenant with them.

So please tell me why you think that you should take yourself from the Church He established because of some sins of men? Think of the passage in Romans where Paul says nothing can take him from the love of God.

mdcpensive1