Historical Questions and the Church

[natedagw824]

Hi there,

I was talking to my dad the other day and we were talking about the history of the Church. My dad mentioned something about a King who broke away from the Church because his priests would not allow him to be remarried in the Catholic Church.
Because the priests would not allow the King to be remarried in the Church, the king had the priests heads cut off. I forgot the king’s name, but is this true?
My dad also told me that this king founded the Protestant church. So if this is all true, how can the Protestant church be a “good church?”
How can a Godly church be of God when it has horrid roots like this?

Now, me or my dad could be wrong, but he says that this is true. He does have some credentials because he was in rome in 1975 studying to be a priest; he didnt go through with it obviously because I’m here.

Here is something else that’s on my mind:

We all know, or most of us now, that the Catholic Church is the true Church that Jesus founded when he was on the earth. Throughout the ages, kings and other people have started their own churches, but why? And are these churches “legal” before God?

If one belongs to one of these churches do they go to Hell because they do not have the sacraments??

Does God give us preferential treatment because WE are involved in the church that he founded?

Any feedback u provide will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks again,

Nathan

 

[Mike_Brick]

Hi there, I was talking to my dad the other day and we were talking about the history of the Church. My dad mentioned something about a King who broke away from the Church because his priests would not allow him to be remarried in the Catholic Church. Because the priests would not allow the King to be remarried in the Church, the king had the priests heads cut off. I forgot the king’s name, but is this true?
My dad also told me that this king founded the Protestant church. So if this is all true, how can the Protestant church be a “good church?”
How can a Godly church be of God when it has horrid roots like this?

Now, me or my dad could be wrong, but he says that this is true. He does have some credentials because he was in rome in 1975 studying to be a priest; he didnt go through with it obviously because I’m here.

Here is something else that’s on my mind:

We all know, or most of us now, that the Catholic Church is the true Church that Jesus founded when he was on the earth. Throughout the ages, kings and other people have started their own churches, but why? And are these churches “legal” before God?

If one belongs to one of these churches do they go to Hell because they do not have the sacraments??

Does God give us preferential treatment because WE are involved in the church that he founded?

Any feedback u provide will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks again,

Nathan

Wow, what a lot of questions in only one post. Welcome to the Forums where if you take the time you can get answers to all of your questions. What your dad was referring to is very complex, not just a king deciding to start his own church, (that King I believe was Henry the VIII of England), who was only one of a number of participants in what is known as the Protestant Reformation in the mid-1500s. A simple and brief explanation of that would be to tell you the Church that Jesus established on Earth, that had operated from the time of the Apostles to the time of the Reformation was one big family. But during those times the family had a big fight, and many family members went their separate ways. Many of us still don’t talk to each other much or get along too well, but we are all still family, like it or not. Since the time of the Reformation when there were roughly four groups leaving the Catholic Church, hard headed humans have formed somewhere around 40,000 new churches all claiming to be Christian, but not in agreement with each other. Their motto is “We multiply by dividing”, if you can understand that concept.

Of course God our “parent” is not happy with all the divisions in the churches, and prays that we would quit being so stubborn and all come home.

I don’t know how old you are, but there are a lot of pretty complex discussions on the various threads of this Forum, so take a look at the titles and check some out. There is a lot to learn, but unfortunately you may see some of the people here still acting hard-headed too, but don’t let that confuse you too much. God is love, and Jesus is the living proof of His love for us, so learn from those who teach His love of God and neighbor!

Welcome

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi there,

I was talking to my dad the other day and we were talking about the history of the Church. My dad mentioned something about a King who broke away from the Church because his priests would not allow him to be remarried in the Catholic Church.
Because the priests would not allow the King to be remarried in the Church, the king had the priests heads cut off. I forgot the king’s name, but is this true?
My dad also told me that this king founded the Protestant church. So if this is all true, how can the Protestant church be a “good church?”
n

if he is speaking of King Henry VIII of England, he founded the Anglican Church, for many political reasons, but what got him started was the fact that his chancellor (a political office) Cardinal Wolsey could not arrange for Henry do obtain a divorce or annulment of his marriage to his first wife, Katherine of Aragon (Spain) so that he could marry one of his many lovers, Anne Boleyn (mother of Queen Elizabeth I). During the upheaval Henry’s actions caused he forced all his subjects including the bishop’s to swear an oath to accept Anne as his wife, to accept the Crown as sole authority over affairs of the Church in England, to acknowledge Elizabeth as heir to the throne (and later, his son by another wife, Jane Seymour, Edward VI) as heir, over his daughter by Katherine, Mary.

Yes he did by direct order have those, including Thomas More who succeeded Wolsey as chancellor, Bishop John Fisher and others who refused to submit beheaded, or otherwise executed. The persecutions of Catholics intensified in the reigns of Edward and Elizabeth, whose advisors made the Church in England much more “Protestant” in doctrine and worship. The monasteries were dissolved, Church property taken by the Crown and distributed to nobles who supported the monarchy creating an entire new class of nobles, priests and other Catholics were executed for adhering to the Catholic religion.

The history is much more involved, but yes, that is the beginning of the Church of England, adultery, greed and bloodshed.

 

[irishmac]

Hi there,

I was talking to my dad the other day and we were talking about the history of the Church. My dad mentioned something about a King who broke away from the Church because his priests would not allow him to be remarried in the Catholic Church.
Because the priests would not allow the King to be remarried in the Church, the king had the priests heads cut off. I forgot the king’s name, but is this true? This is true. King Henry VIII of England was married to Catherine of Aragon, daughter of the King of Spain. She had given birth to 6 children, with only one surviving, Mary. Mary was the heir presumptive, but no woman had ever taken the throne of England, so Henry VIII decided that he wanted his 24 year marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled in 1527. The Pope, Clement VII, took several years to decide. Henry VIII, wanting a male heir, separated from Catherine, married Anne Boleyn, and had Thomas Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury annul the marriage to Catherine of Aragon in 1533. Henry then passed the Act of Surpremacy, thereby eliminating Papal Authority in England.

My dad also told me that this king founded the Protestant church.The Church of England, or the Anglican church. Henry VIII and all subsequent English monarchs were the head of this church. So if this is all true, how can the Protestant church be a "good church?"Good question. The Anglican church had a tulmultuous start, separating from and outlawing the Catholic Church. They took the theology of the Catholic Church and bent it as they saw fit.
How can a Godly church be of God when it has horrid roots like this?People adopted theology that taught them how to live following Christ’s example. The Reformation gave them the excuse to follow humanistic ideologies and interpret Scripture for themselves. As the generations passed, it was harder to see those glaringly “horrid roots.” So, generation after generation, parents taught their children this faith and thus, it was passed down, without any knowledge of wrongdoing.

Here is something else that’s on my mind:

We all know, or most of us now, that the Catholic Church is the true Church that Jesus founded when he was on the earth. Throughout the ages, kings and other people have started their own churches, but why?It is as St. Peter wrote in his 1st letter [paraphase] People will twist Scriptures to their own destruction. And are these churches “legal” before God?That, my brother in Christ, is for God to decide.

If one belongs to one of these churches do they go to Hell because they do not have the sacraments??We cannot know that as it is not ours to know. But, I believe Hell is for those that reject God’s gift of salvation. Once again, that’s for God to decide.

Does God give us preferential treatment because WE are involved in the church that he founded?Preferential, no. You are being obedient, like a good child. (I wasn’t trying to say you were a child). You have a “pearl of great price.” If we received preferential treatment from God because we are doing what he asked, then I haven’t received my Ferrari or the treasures yet. Just Kidding! Our gift for following the rules is the same as those who didn’t but still loved the Lord with all their hearts, minds, and souls: the beatific vision in Heaven.

Any feedback u provide will be greatly appreciated!If you want to learn about the English Reformation, then I’d recommend the great Catholic historian’s, Hilaire Belloc, books, “How the Reformation Happened,” “Characters of the Reformation,” or “The Great Heresies.” This will open your eyes to some of the motives behind the English Reformation.

Thanks again,John Henry Cardinal Newman, once a Anglican minister turned Catholic Cardinal said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
Nathan

 

[Atreyu]

Annie is it really true that Henry VIII had lovers during his marriage to Catherine of Aragon? I had the understanding that he wanted an annulment because Catherine wasn’t producing any male heirs, and he wanted to secure his line.

 

[natedagw824]

Thanks for the responses; just to let you know, I’m almost 25.

Thanks again,

Nathan

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi there,
I was talking to my dad the other day and we were talking about the history of the Church. My dad mentioned something about a King who broke away from the Church because his priests would not allow him to be remarried in the Catholic Church.
Because the priests would not allow the King to be remarried in the Church, the king had the priests heads cut off. I forgot the king’s name, but is this true?

If it’s a reference to Henry VIII, it’s a bit mangled, but recognisable The whole business of Henry VIII’s marital goings-on is of course far more complex - life usually is.​

My dad also told me that this king founded the Protestant church. So if this is all true, how can the Protestant church be a “good church?”
How can a Godly church be of God when it has horrid roots like this?

How can the CC be “of God” when so many of its clergy have been less than Christian in their conduct ? Same problem.​

Judas betrayed Christ; Peter denied Him; His disciples ran away - not very impressive, is it ? In all three cases - Prot, Cath, & Christian - we’re dealing with the contrast between the sinfulness of man, and the grace of God. No human sinfulness is so vile that God’s grace cannot turn it to good - sin remains sinful, but it cannot overcome God’s purposes. So the ghastliness of man - whatever his religion or lack of it - never has the last word; this goes for our sins, as much as for those of folk who are notorious for their crimes. All sin is evil - no matter who we are or our neighbour is. That doesn’t mean that God cannot bring great good from a bad beginning - He seems to do so continually. Which is one reason why the C of E is not done for by that part of its history. And in any case, the marital goings-on are not the sole or sufficient cause of the English Reformation.

BTW - the Church of England is one Protestant Church: it =/= all Protestantism. ##

Now, me or my dad could be wrong, but he says that this is true. He does have some credentials because he was in rome in 1975 studying to be a priest; he didnt go through with it obviously because I’m here.

…continue…]

 

[dessert]

irishmac:
Yes after all that can a protestant church be a good church, is a good question but her dad was probably just trying to discredit religion alltogether. dessert

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here is something else that’s on my mind:
We all know, or most of us now, that the Catholic Church is the true Church that Jesus founded when he was on the earth. Throughout the ages, kings and other people have started their own churches, but why? And are these churches “legal” before God?
If one belongs to one of these churches do they go to Hell because they do not have the sacraments??
Does God give us preferential treatment because WE are involved in the church that he founded?

**1. **Long answer - read the OT prophets. As Amos says to Israel: “You only have I known of all the families of the earth - therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” (Amos 3.2). Instead of being spared judgement & being able to gloat over the punishments undergone by other nations, Israel is going to be severely punished precisely because it was uniquely chosen by God; & so it was.​

Because the OT Church was chosen by God for His Glory, it risked misunderstanding its privileged status to mean that God was not offended by its sins. It took the Exile to teach the Jews that God had chosen them for His the sake of His Name, not for themselves; & that He was quite prepared to bring disaster upon them if they behaved unrighteously. Because it was privileged, God cared passionately about how it lived. And God is not different - God is still Righteous, Holy, Faithful, & passionately concerned with His People.

2. Short answer - look at Jesus Christ. He was the Beloved Son of His Father, yet what suffering was He spared ? God’s “preferential treatment” of those whom He Loves, means that He does not spare them suffering: **because **He loves them, therefore, they must take up the Cross & follow His Son.

Where there are privileges **from **God, responsibility **to **God is greater than if we had not received them. So we can expect to be punished more severely for abusing them, or for not using them at all, than those who lack them. That’s why it’s a very bad idea to boast of privileges. As St. Paul says, “Judgement begins at the household of God”. It begins there - though it does not stop there. There are severe words for several of the churches in Revelation 2 & 3 ##

Any feedback u provide will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again,
Nathan

 

[dessert]

Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t ask you if you are Catholic but I reread the post and it sounds like you are.
There was a priest that left the church and started the menonites religion, many years ago of course, so did he go to hell?
It is admirable for your dad to follow what God wanted for his life.
It is fascinating what people went through for the church, in history and now. Dessert

 

[puzzleannie]

Annie is it really true that Henry VIII had lovers during his marriage to Catherine of Aragon? I had the understanding that he wanted an annulment because Catherine wasn’t producing any male heirs, and he wanted to secure his line.

yes, several, including Mary Bolyen, Anne’s older sister. he also had at least one known illegitimate child John Duke of Richmond, so in his mind he knew the lack of a male heir was “not his fault”. Anne was the first of his lovers to hold out for marriage, although she did finally give in, and was 4 months along when their “marriage” finally took place. She was roundly booed at her “coronation” by adherents of the true queen and the true religion. He also had lovers throughout his other 4 “marriages” and always had someone ready to go when he divorced or beheaded his current “wife”. He died riddled with the effects of syphilis, which almost certainly was contracted by his son, Edward in the birth process and led to his early untimely death, and possibly his mother’s death in childbirth.

lest we be accused of weighting the evidence to one side, Robert Bolt’s play based on the events of the period, a Man for All Seasons, shows Wolsey, a cardinal of the church, in bed with his long-time mistress by whom he had several children, and the portrayal is probably historically accurate as the affair is part of the historical record of Wolsey’s sad mis-spent career. one reason Thomas More had so many enemies ready to vilify him at the first opportunity is his notorious marital fidelity and chastity, which was an affront to the habits of most notable men of the day. The first bishops Henry sent to the block included those who had been most outspoken from the pulpit about the rampant sexual sin of the country’s leadership.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi
Now, me or my dad could be wrong, but he says that this is true. He does have some credentials because he was in rome in 1975 studying to be a priest; he didnt go through with it obviously because I’m here.

you don’t need a seminary education to know the historical, political, cultural and religious background of the Protestant Reformation and its aftermath in Europe, you do need a good European history course.

 

[irishmac]

We also have to remember how the marriage of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon came about. Catherine of Aragon was married to Arthur, Prince of Wales, eldest son of Henry VII, older brother of Henry VIII. However, shortly after their marriage, after a trip to Wales, Arthur and Catherine became ill with some disease. Arthur died; Catherine survived, barely. Catherine claimed that their marriage had yet to be consummated, and Pope Julius II issued a Dispensation for Catherine to marry Henry VIII. So, after 24 years, when Henry VIII decided to ask for the annulment in 1527, Pope Clement VII had to drag his feet a bit because granting the annulment would be an admittance that the Church erred in granting the Dispensation. But, also, the city of Rome and the Papal States were conquered by Charles V, Catherine’s nephew. I don’t know if Charles V urged Pope Clement VII to stall or deny the annulment, but it didn’t matter because Henry VIII did not wait for the answer. In 1533, Henry separated from Catherine, had his marriage to her “annulled” by Thomas Cranmer, married Anne Boleyn, and then had Parliament pass the Act of Surpremacy, which effectively eliminated Papal authority in England. The state Church of England was the result and Henry VIII was its head. Many Catholics with the means fled to the Continent as persecutions of Catholics began. Monasteries and cathedrals were looted for their “treasures” and many Catholic priests and monks and nuns were martyred as a result of this turmoil. In 1534, Henry VIII request for an annulment was denied, even after the fracture had occurred.