Holding Hands during Our Father?

[anamchara]

It’s not my favorite thing at all, I would be happy without holding hands. I never did as a Protestant so it was odd for me when I became Catholic. I understand the meaning behind it and appreciate this but I wouldn’t be upset if they got rid of it.

Having said that, I won’t go to Mass and not hold hands if someone reaches out.

 

[blessedtoo]

And I will continue to urge all toward charity in not in any way imposing their personal preferences upon the person next to them or judging their neighbor on those preferences.

Well, that’s a lovely thought but how does that apply when your pastor writes in the bulletin that all are expect to hold hands during the Our Father? Now who is imposing on whom? And you may trust me that this is not an isolated incident.

This is an argument that is often made. The problem with it is that the GIRM gives NO direction at all to hand posture for the laity. If you want to take the approach that we can only do with our hands what the GIRM directs, then we will have to cut them off as nothing is directed.

I am sure you know that we could go around and around with this line of reasoning. However, back in the prehistoric-pre V2 era, we might have clasped our hands together and pointed them toward heaven, kept them in our pockets or on the pew in front of us, or twiddled with our hair. The point is it did not involve OTHER PEOPLES HANDS. It did not impose upon the person beside me to do something with which that person might not agree or feel uncomfortable with. It did not start a “movement” within the community. It did not sweep throught the Churches like wildfire, causing letters to descend upon the Vatican. It did not cause division among the followers. It did not set off a chain reaction of innovations that now make Mass almost unrecognizable. Like I said before, and you didn’t address, apparently holding hands isn’t enough for today’s Catholic. Now we are forced to introduce ourselves to one another before Mass begins. And the kiss of peace is now the meet and greet right smack dab in the middle of Mass, with priests and people roaming all around the Church for 5 minutes.

BTW: The only other place I have seen this holding of hands while praing the Our Father is in AA meetings.

 

[decn2b]

**
P.S. That person’s hand that you held last Sunday at Mass was deciding to leave my Church. He saw your gesture as a reason to stay. Love knows no limits. Trust Me, I know.**

My brother cited the sillyness of hand holding during the Our Father as one of the reasons he left for a different church. . His words " I am not into that touchy feely Simon and Garfunkel huggy hand holdy stuff, I want to worship God." He is now an Elder is his Evangelical Church. He said he decided to bolt when he saw the church going soft. He Also told me that the communal aspect of Catholcism is overdone to the point of reducing existance of a personal relationship with Jesus. (his words not mine). He told me that at his Judgement No-one is going to be there holding his hand. He constantlay warns me that overemphasis of “community” can lead one out of recognizing personal sin. And when that happens a soul is lost.

I just thought I would respond with an ACTUAL story of a person whos hand was held and not some personal opinoin of what someone thinks how our Lord views the Matter.

 

[teachccd]

My brother cited the sillyness of hand holding during the Our Father as one of the reasons he left for a different church. . His words " I am not into that touchy feely Simon and Garfunkel huggy hand holdy stuff, I want to worship God." He is now an Elder is his Evangelical Church. He said he decided to bolt when he saw the church going soft. He Also told me that the communal aspect of Catholcism is overdone to the point of reducing existance of a personal relationship with Jesus. (his words not mine). He told me that at his Judgement No-one is going to be there holding his hand. He constantlay warns me that overemphasis of “community” can lead one out of recognizing personal sin. And when that happens a soul is lost.

I just thought I would respond with an ACTUAL story of a person whos hand was held and not some personal opinoin of what someone thinks how our Lord views the Matter.

Individuals will make individual choices. I’m sorry to hear about your brother’s leaving. But I have been to various protestant services and there is a heck of a lot more hugging and holding hands than you’d ever find in the Catholic Church. In fact, a lack of “fellowshipping” is what many ex-Catholics claim for the Catholic Church. My son almost left for this very reason. He said that our Church is cold and not very receptive. He “feels” Jesus more in those protestant churches.

Jesus always emphasized gathering and touching. In His healings He mostly laid hands or touched the person in some way. Jesus emphasized gathering when He stated that “where two or three are** gathered** in My name…”

No writings of the early Church spoke of a " personal relationship" with Jesus. All worship is mentioned as a communal affair. Community was and is the core of worship. We express this ultimately in the Eucharist which is the community gathering at the table of the Lord.

Which brings me to my final point. No one who recognizes the Eucharist for what it is, Jesus Himself, would leave over hand holding. The Eucharist is the center of our faith, par execellance. This is the ultimate gift of love.

In my quoted post, I merely wanted to show how Jesus would always be there to hold our hand and that we should emulate Him. The Bible states that if one sins first you go to that person and finally if he doesn’t listen you take it to the Church. That does not reflect your brother’s idea that community ruins your acknowledging personal sin. In fact, the beginning of Mass is dedicated to acknowledging our sins.

Your brother is in my prayers and he was lost way before someone held his hand. God Bless

 

[decn2b]

In fact, the beginning of Mass is dedicated to acknowledging our sins.

Agreed.

I do think wer should caution that the Primary meaning of the Mass is indeed centered around the Eucharist. It is a Gathering of people but not always which is NOT its primary focus… And a Mass is still just as “good” Still very much a mass if it is celebrated by a lone priest as opposed to a stadium full of people. It does not have a different meaning nor does it mean that it is a more complete sacrifice.

Corporate reduction can lead us into the notion that the Fraternal nature of the Mass is the Prime Meaning of the event. In reality it is a secondary . Jesus died for all people, but all people as individuals. If we fall into an exclusively corporate sin theology then we reduce individual person. When we do that our very individuality eroded and personal guilt starts to fade. you must agree that we are only held accountable for our Own sins and Jesus knows every hair on our head not to mistaken with all of our hairs on all of our heads together.

The Mass is not a simple Fraternal Banquet. It is the making present the Sacrifice of Calvary.

The church has recognized that the a sign of Unity is important during worship services THAT IS WHY THE KISS OF PEACE is placed in the Mass. That is the time where we express our love of fellowship and peace with each other. It is redundant to hold hands in a sign of “unity” during the our father then immediately go through the act of shaking hands with each other and showing that sign of unity.

Offering the sign of peace is an aknowledgement of love for our fellow near us in our pew. It is recognizing the image of God in those we offer peace to. It is a brief mini-aknowledgment of the person who is there with us as a sinner. That act is reduced by the holding of hands during the Our father. Whay don’t we just hold hands during the creed. Or better yet why not have everyone just Lock arms and rock back and forth KUM BAYA style.

The hand holding did NOT come from the Magisterium. Those who CHOOSE NOT TO HOLD HANDS ARE NOT SINNING. The hand holding bunch has twisted and incorporated this practice in to our worship and by so have created a false moral practice. A practice by which those of us who fail to do are looked at as unchairitable. This situation of division was created by somewhere other than the magisterium. This situation has created hurt towards both sides. If hand holding were never started NO ONE would know the difference and countless people would not feel alienated. This practice of hand holding has been around so long it is viewed as almost a mandatory gesture. Those who do not abide by this gesture are alienated. If one wants to hold hands during the our father GREAT! DO IT! But remember our worship practices are NOT OURS TO ADD to PERIOD.

 

[dessert]

My brother cited the sillyness of hand holding during the Our Father as one of the reasons he left for a different church. . His words " I am not into that touchy feely Simon and Garfunkel huggy hand holdy stuff, I want to worship God." He is now an Elder is his Evangelical Church. He said he decided to bolt when he saw the church going soft. He Also told me that the communal aspect of Catholcism is overdone to the point of reducing existance of a personal relationship with Jesus. (his words not mine). He told me that at his Judgement No-one is going to be there holding his hand. He constantlay warns me that overemphasis of “community” can lead one out of recognizing personal sin. And when that happens a soul is lost.

I just thought I would respond with an ACTUAL story of a person whos hand was held and not some personal opinoin of what someone thinks how our Lord views the Matter.

I HOPE YOU DON’T LET HIM TALK YOU INTO LEAVING THE CHURCH !
Jesus will be there holding our hand (on J - day) as He is our and my and your Savior as that is why we are accepting His salvation on a daily visit. Dessert

 

[decn2b]

I HOPE YOU DON’T LET HIM TALK YOU INTO LEAVING THE CHURCH !
Jesus will be there holding our hand (on J - day) as He is our and my and your Savior as that is why we are accepting His salvation on a daily visit. Dessert

Don’t worry. I only am assumed as leaving the church by those self appointed liturgical authorites who excommunicate me for refusing to hold hands during the our Father.

If one wants to hold hands during the our father GREAT! DO IT! Remember he Mass is not ours to add innovations to. The absence of the requirement to hold hands during the Pater Noster in church documents speaks to me in VOLUMES that it is an innovation that came from somewhere other than Magisterium.

I will not do it becuase if distracts my attention from God. Until the Magesterium says that it should be done (which it never will) I will not do it. I choose to express my sense of community at the point of Mass in which the magisterium has indicated to me that appropriate time and that is at the kiss of peace. No one can cause me to sin. The sin of assumption comes into play when the hand holder looks down their nose at us non-hand holders. I have heard other tradtionalists say that it is hand holding fascism.

 

[teachccd]

The Mass is not a simple Fraternal Banquet. It is the making present the Sacrifice of Calvary.

While Mass celebrated alone is valid it does not reflect the Last Supper in form and is discouraged. Jesus had His disciples present and said “Do this in memory of me”. Had He been alone the priesthood would have ended there.

This is my final post in this thread, unless specifically challenged, so I’ll say that that this is probably the most petty of all liturgical abuses (if it is even considered as such) that could be discussed. What I would pray for is that all of us at Mass recognize the beauty and gift of the perpetuated sacrifice of God in giving us His Son for the redemption of the world. I teach a pre-baptism class where each month I obtain a captive audience. MOST of the people there are so un/under-catechized that it’s really sad. I would pray that those, of which there are so many, would understand the Mass at its fullest sacrificial and communal meal. If they understood the Old Testament typology and the fulfillment of Christ’s sacrifice perpetuated at each Mass I would gladly hold their hand all through Mass. We need to see the big picture and quit concentrating on one pixel…God Bless

 

[john_ennis]

back in the prehistoric-pre V2 era, we might have clasped our hands together and pointed them toward heaven, kept them in our pockets or on the pew in front of us, or twiddled with our hair. The point is it did not involve OTHER PEOPLES HANDS. It did not impose upon the person beside me to do something with which that person might not agree or feel uncomfortable with. It did not start a “movement” within the community. It did not sweep throught the Churches like wildfire,
. And the kiss of peace is now the meet and greet right smack dab in the middle of Mass, with priests and people roaming all around the Church for 5 minutes.
.

These practical points are some of the most persuasive ones for having a discussion about this.

It may not be a huge deal in the big scheme, and those who love the idea of hand-holding may be as faithful as anybody else.

But it is an imposition on others. It’s silly to suggest that those who see it as a negative are just as free as always not to do it.

As I said, looking first to the Father, we are unified through his gift, Jesus. That’s where our Communion originates.

As the folks next to me reach for my hands, I’m not looking first to God, but to the community.

Peace.
John

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If I ever meet the Pope I’m going to promise everyone here that 'll ask him about holding hands during the Our Father and I’ll ask him if it is OK for me to tell everyone here what he said.