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RonWI
Guest
Why is this considered an abuse?
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cargopilot
Guest
Do a search for Notitiae, Volume XI, Page 226.
Here is a link that gives the short version.
saint-mike.org/QA/FS/ViewAnswer.asp?QID=447
Here is a link that gives the short version.
saint-mike.org/QA/FS/ViewAnswer.asp?QID=447
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PJR
Guest
I believe this little equine is dead. I refuse to flog it.
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LoneRanger
Guest
…do what’s in your heart… if your with family, and if your family wants to… no harm, no foul…
if your standing next to a stranger, count on piriferal vision to spot their glance or hand coming your way, then either grasp their hand or continue looking forward, close your eyes and fold your hands as if in devout prayer… they will think you didn’t see them…
…but I see no true problem with it either way… you will always find those who don’ t like change, or can’t handle it, and that’s ok too… they won’t be reaching for your hand…
Peace:thumbsup:
if your standing next to a stranger, count on piriferal vision to spot their glance or hand coming your way, then either grasp their hand or continue looking forward, close your eyes and fold your hands as if in devout prayer… they will think you didn’t see them…
…but I see no true problem with it either way… you will always find those who don’ t like change, or can’t handle it, and that’s ok too… they won’t be reaching for your hand…
Peace:thumbsup:
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RonWI
Guest
I am relatively new to this site, and I am Lutheran, and this is the first thread I have ever started in this category. I apologize if I have just kicked a dead dog, but my question is sincere.
Lutherans never ever hold hands. At masses I have been to, some do and some do not. So when I saw on another thread that this is considered “an abuse”, it struck me as odd.
I do not have a horse in this race, and am not looking to pick a fight. I’m just curious.
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Della
Guest
Welcome to the board, RonWI. Sorry your first thread got such responses, but some people have tired of the topic. It’s not your fault. 
The reason holding hands during the Our Father is an abuse is because it is not in the rubrics of the Mass. Anything that is not mandated is not to be done during the Mass, so such innovations are an abuse, although a minor one.
People began holding hands during Charismatic Masses or at camp and thought it a nice way to show unity. But, the sign of unity in the Catholic Church is the Eucharist, not a mere holding of hands. Besides, there is the Sign of Peace, during which people can take the hand of their neighbor, which is in the rubrics.
In many parishes the holding of hands has been become a serious distraction from the altar and the Sacrifice on it, which is another reason why it shouldn’t be done. People stretching arms out between aisles and that sort of thing is not conducive to proper worship nor of reverence, which are more important than mere conviviality.
The reason holding hands during the Our Father is an abuse is because it is not in the rubrics of the Mass. Anything that is not mandated is not to be done during the Mass, so such innovations are an abuse, although a minor one.
People began holding hands during Charismatic Masses or at camp and thought it a nice way to show unity. But, the sign of unity in the Catholic Church is the Eucharist, not a mere holding of hands. Besides, there is the Sign of Peace, during which people can take the hand of their neighbor, which is in the rubrics.
In many parishes the holding of hands has been become a serious distraction from the altar and the Sacrifice on it, which is another reason why it shouldn’t be done. People stretching arms out between aisles and that sort of thing is not conducive to proper worship nor of reverence, which are more important than mere conviviality.
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RonWI
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I just thought it was plain wierd. But if you listen to A Prairie Home Companion, you’ll understand why. Eye contact is pushing it with Lutherans.
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Penitent
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I cracked up when I read this…somewhere along the line I must’ve inherited some Lutheran traits because were it up to me, I’d never open my eyes in Mass (but occasionally I have to because I lose my balance, LOL).
Penitent
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rcn
Guest
Instead of the thoughts of the self-titled “Br. Ignatius Mary”, who has no more standing in the Church than you or I, perhaps the opinion of Archbishop Chaput (Denver) might be more worthwhile:
archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=5&s=2&a=22
I am not a “hand-holder” myself, but Chaput’s stance makes sense to me.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
In my opinion the abuse in this is not the holding of hands. But the invitation or even in many places the insistance by the priest that EVERYBODY hold hands. Then there are the parishes where “we are not going to start the Our Father until EVERYBODY is holding hands.” or the reach across the aisle, scoot halfway across the pew, reach as far as you can requirement.
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PJR
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Hey Ron, Maybe I should have suggested that you go to the past posts that dealt with this. They are on Liturgy and Sacraments. There are two threads. One re:handholding/refusal of sign of peace and the other just handholding.
It seems to be a really big deal to many on this site, so be prepared to read a while.
Didn’t mean to dismiss your honest request, sorry about that. I kind of thought it was a bait to get an argument going again.
BTW, your comments about Lutherans not even making eye contact was funny. I’d be interested to hear what you think of all this after you wade through the threads.
Oh, be careful about admitting to listening to Prairie Home Companion. Maybe you hadn’t heard, NPR is a left wing conspiracy. Every time I listen to that show that’s exactly what I think, “wow, those wild and crazy Lutherans.”
Paula
RonWI:
It seems to be a really big deal to many on this site, so be prepared to read a while.
Didn’t mean to dismiss your honest request, sorry about that. I kind of thought it was a bait to get an argument going again.
BTW, your comments about Lutherans not even making eye contact was funny. I’d be interested to hear what you think of all this after you wade through the threads.
Oh, be careful about admitting to listening to Prairie Home Companion. Maybe you hadn’t heard, NPR is a left wing conspiracy. Every time I listen to that show that’s exactly what I think, “wow, those wild and crazy Lutherans.”
Paula
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RonWI
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Although it is never said, Prairie Home Companion would appear to involve an ELCA parish, which is the predominant Lutheran denomination in Minnesota. Although the ELCA is way out liberal (I am of the far more “conservative” LCMS variety), it is portrayed as old school on the show. Laughs aside, it actually is a pretty acurate portrayal of Lutheran congregations, at least up through the 1970s.
There is a distinct parallel of the Catholic and Lutheran Churches in that both have left wing, kumbaya, genderless factions that like rock bands and dancers during the liturgy. I strongly object to such positions. When I say the Our Father (referred to as the Lord’s Prayer in Lutheran circles), I do not want to be distracted by having to hold everyone’s hands.
Some people may be offended by this. But I do not think that anyone has the “right” to say “I want to hold your hand, I don’t care what you want”. No one has the right to demand that.
And in the spirit of sola scriptura, when Jesus told us how to pray, group hand holding, shakes and hugs were not included. (This is a joke. I know that much of the liturgy is not in the Bible. The Lutheran position is this:
1] Falsely are our [Lutheran] churches accused [by Rome] of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among 2] us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved, save that the parts sung in Latin are interspersed here and there with German hymns, which have been added 3] to teach the people. For ceremonies are needed to this end alone that the unlearned 4] be taught [what they need to know of Christ].
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html#article24
I doubt that “the usual ceremonies” of 1524 included hand holding.
There is a distinct parallel of the Catholic and Lutheran Churches in that both have left wing, kumbaya, genderless factions that like rock bands and dancers during the liturgy. I strongly object to such positions. When I say the Our Father (referred to as the Lord’s Prayer in Lutheran circles), I do not want to be distracted by having to hold everyone’s hands.
Some people may be offended by this. But I do not think that anyone has the “right” to say “I want to hold your hand, I don’t care what you want”. No one has the right to demand that.
And in the spirit of sola scriptura, when Jesus told us how to pray, group hand holding, shakes and hugs were not included. (This is a joke. I know that much of the liturgy is not in the Bible. The Lutheran position is this:
1] Falsely are our [Lutheran] churches accused [by Rome] of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among 2] us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved, save that the parts sung in Latin are interspersed here and there with German hymns, which have been added 3] to teach the people. For ceremonies are needed to this end alone that the unlearned 4] be taught [what they need to know of Christ].
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html#article24
I doubt that “the usual ceremonies” of 1524 included hand holding.
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betrublu2Him
Guest
:nope: Not dead at all to me! I am so glad I have read these posts. I was wondering the same thing. I am completely uncomfortable holding hands at the Our Father. I stopped the custom all together, even with my family. I am thinking about approaching my Pastor and asking him to consider changing this in our parish. Some posters here have added some good points and I will take those with me when I speak to him.
Thank you for bringing this up again, RonWI !!!
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PJR
Guest
Very interesting. So does the Lutheran celebration of the Eucharist-if that’s the correct term-include the sign of peace? I would be guessing not, since your mass comes from Luther’s time.
I didn’t know Latin was included in your liturgy. I’ll check out those sites.
I know that handholding was first introduced to me after Cursillo. I think Lutherans have a form of Cursillo, maybe I’m wrong. I wouldn’t say Cursillo is charismatic, but it stressed the Kumbaya, as you said. I found the overall message being to step out of your comfort zone, be Christ and see Christ in others around you.
The Bishop is the spiritual director for the women’s Fall Cursillo in my diocese this year. I will be interested to see how he guides the group on this issue. I think our diocese is being ‘gently’ lead away from the practice under his direction.
I think the horizontal and the vertical aspects of worship are both essential. I hope we will be given some clear guidelines by the bishops so we can all quit worrying about it.
I would be interested to see if you took the liturgical argument completely out of the equation, if the Church said that either way was fine, and it was simply a personal preference, (and I know that this is hypothetical, I have read the GIRM) would both the pros and the cons still be rude and judgemental to each other? Both sides can be guilty of being uncharitable to others I think.
I didn’t know Latin was included in your liturgy. I’ll check out those sites.
I know that handholding was first introduced to me after Cursillo. I think Lutherans have a form of Cursillo, maybe I’m wrong. I wouldn’t say Cursillo is charismatic, but it stressed the Kumbaya, as you said. I found the overall message being to step out of your comfort zone, be Christ and see Christ in others around you.
The Bishop is the spiritual director for the women’s Fall Cursillo in my diocese this year. I will be interested to see how he guides the group on this issue. I think our diocese is being ‘gently’ lead away from the practice under his direction.
I think the horizontal and the vertical aspects of worship are both essential. I hope we will be given some clear guidelines by the bishops so we can all quit worrying about it.
I would be interested to see if you took the liturgical argument completely out of the equation, if the Church said that either way was fine, and it was simply a personal preference, (and I know that this is hypothetical, I have read the GIRM) would both the pros and the cons still be rude and judgemental to each other? Both sides can be guilty of being uncharitable to others I think.
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jjwilkman
Guest
floggind a dead horse is an ok expression. much ado about nothing.
i don’t have a problem. if i am with my family, we hold hands.
if i am alone, i check to see what the other person wants.
abuse is making it mandatory one way or the other…
there was a parish that refused to give first communicants communion it the mouth. abuse!
to make holding hands mandatory is an abuse of an individual’s private preferences
for some people, the sign of peace can be a nod of the head.
two more cents!
i don’t have a problem. if i am with my family, we hold hands.
if i am alone, i check to see what the other person wants.
abuse is making it mandatory one way or the other…
there was a parish that refused to give first communicants communion it the mouth. abuse!
to make holding hands mandatory is an abuse of an individual’s private preferences
for some people, the sign of peace can be a nod of the head.
two more cents!
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betrublu2Him
Guest
Well, all I can say is that it is a personal preference to me not to hold hands. All these years I thought it was mandatory! I came to the church as a young adult-now to me, it wasn’t serious enough of a commitment. Before that I had attended church on my own or with friends. I can remember holding hands even back then. Years had gone by and I came back to the church (had a spiritual renewal of the heart) and discovered many things I never knew before. Naturally being ‘old school’ minded - I am still young, hee hee - all the older things about the church is what attracted me. I long for the old way to come back to all churches, but I know that won’t happen(?). I feel the need to now look around to other parishes in my community just to see how they do things and possibly make a change accordingly. I feel like a protestant (please, I mean no offense) searching for a church that suits me…HELP!
feeling frustrated!
note: two people behind me and my family one day in Mass didn’t want to extend their hands during the sign of peace. i completely understood, and still nodded-smiled to say ‘peace be with you.’ my husband thought them to be rude. i quickly explained to him their preference is different from ours and not to think it to be rude!
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