Holding Hands

[Loy]

My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.
There are many good objections to holding hands during the Our Father. But as much as I respect Adoremus magazine, the objection that the practice originated with AA doesn’t sit well with me. Not all liturgical practices have “purely” Catholic origens, and they shouldn’t be required to.

 

[Loy]

Per the USCCB, “there is no prescribed position for the hands during the Our Father”. The one caveat in it all though is that whatever position is taken should be at the individual’s initiative as nobody–including the priest or the Liturgical Director–is allowed to prescribe it or forbid it, though some bishops do encourage or discourage it.

This is all fine and well, but in reality priests are actually making their own rubrics. They either tell the people to hold hands for the Our Father, or they inform the parishioners that it’s not permitted.

Moreover, even when the priest is verbally silent on the issue, it is mildly coërcive when the priest holds hands with everyone up on the altar (who, admittedly, should not be up there in the first place), when everyone in the congregation holds hands, when people cross the aisle to the other side, when people lean across several rows, or as Maria pointed out, when kindly little old ladies tap someone on the shoulder.

The bishops may have spoken, but they don’t seem willing to address the actual realities at Mass. Individual initiative is largely absent.

 

[ncjohn]

This is all fine and well, but in reality priests are actually making their own rubrics. They either tell the people to hold hands for the Our Father, or they inform the parishioners that it’s not permitted.

Moreover, even when the priest is verbally silent on the issue, it is mildly coërcive when the priest holds hands with everyone up on the altar (who, admittedly, should not be up there in the first place), when everyone in the congregation holds hands, when people cross the aisle to the other side, when people lean across several rows, or as Maria pointed out, when kindly little old ladies tap someone on the shoulder.

The bishops may have spoken, but they don’t seem willing to address the actual realities at Mass. Individual initiative is largely absent.

I agree Loy that those realities exist, and I am quite sure that it is those very realities that have made many uncomfortable to the point of frustration and backlash when they otherwise might have taken a “live and let live” approach.

My main point in posting on this forum is to try to bring some calm and charity between Catholics and to try to help stop some of the backbiting I see dividing our Church. I see so much of it being the result of too great a focus on externals and too little focus on actual devotion to God. A proper balance of the two is critical in my mind to a healthy religion and spirituality. There must always be revererence while recognizing that there is diversity in people and that people need to be able to approach God in ways that promote a healthy relationship both with God and His people. Our differences in musical taste or how we receive communion, much less how we hold our hands when we pray, should not be defining “good” and “bad” Catholics and I weep when I think of Jesus saying “woe to you; you teach traditions of men as laws of God”, knowing how much we are prone to doing that.

Archbishop Chaput had a wonderful pastoral letter dealing with this particular issue that was posted in a previous thread, but that thread was part of what got wiped out in the “hack attack” and I’ve not yet been able to put my hands on it. I am actively in the process of putting together an online petition to the USCCB to try to get them to implement an approach in line with Archbishop Chaput’s statement, and I will post a link to it as soon as we get all the details of the process worked out forr any interested in trying to get a practical solution to this.

Peace,

 

[cjaubert]

There are numerous articles out there, including the letter from Archbishop Chaput of Denver, acknowledging that it is fine and simply a matter of personal preference.

This is NOT what he said. I assume your reference is to archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

Let’s see what he did say (while avoiding for now the fact that his writing is not infallible or binding on anyone):

1. “Our answer to this question [posture during the Our Father] needs to come from the Church’s understanding of this moment in the Mass.”
2. “Our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.”
3. Holding hands during the Our Father “enhances a sense of community. This is perfectly appropriate — SO LONG AS (emphasis mine) it can be done with dignity and without the unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue.”
4. Not holding hands “is also perfectly appropriate.”
5. The liturgy is the public worship of the whole Church, not merely the local community.

Here is my point with these quotes:

1. Archbishop Chaput does NOT say “it is fine and simply a matter of personal preference” (at least in this link). He says that holding hands is, IN SOME INSTANCES, appropriate. You distorted his point with your comment.
2. Archbishop Chaput does NOT speak for the church.
3. Whatever Archbishop Chaput DOES say, he then QUALIFIES. Why does he not not just say, “holding hands is fine and simply a matter of personal preference,” or, just “holding hands is always appropriate”? More simply, why does he need to qualify his comment at all, if your interpretation of it is accurate?

The answer is, holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is NOT always appropriate. Indeed, it seems to me that the “unseemly acrobatics” he is referring to are the holding of hands across aisles, between rows, or between people who have to move 10 feet one way or the other just to be able to hold hands.

This begs the question of him: If “enhancing a sense of community” justifies the gesture, then why place limits on it? If one’s “unseemly acrobatics” as described above “enhance a sense of community” for the acrobats, why, then, is it ONLY NOW inappropriate in Archbishop Chaput’s eyes for them to hold hands?

1. Cardinal Mahony (I think a Cardinal is higher than an Archbishop, isn’t it?), as I recall, presided at a mass recently with odd liturgical dancing. (See: 70.86.228.61/movie.htm) Does that fact now make liturgical dancing acceptable and appropriate? (Point: Just because a Cardinal or Archbishop says or does something does not make it binding on anyone.)
2. Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo just a few days ago ordained (okay, tried to ordain) four married men as bishops, because he wants to make priestly celibacy optional. (See: abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2486079.) Does this now make the ordaining of married men as priests and priestly celibacy optional or legitimate merely because Archbishop Milingo did it or because he says it is his personal preference and, as far as he is concerned, appropriate?

John, I really do not wish to extremely offend you any more. It was never my intention to do so in the first place, but I rather obviously failed. You clearly see this differently than I (and at least a few others) do. I am obviously not going to persuade you (“I’ve got my mind made up, don’t confuse me with the facts” - JUST TEASING!!!), so I leave it to your good judgment whether to hold hands.

Hey, wait just a cotton picking minute!! That was my point in the first place!! :banghead:

In reading my earlier posts, I can’t find a single place where I said the posture was outlawed, illegal, prohibited (except for priests), forbidden, only the province of heretics, or anything of the sort. My ONLY points were (1) I thought it was not appropriate, for the many reasons stated, and (2) the posture could not be forced on anyone. Nothing more, and nothing less. I wonder why people read something into what I did not say? This reminds me of what I have heard said about the media, “Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.”

God bless, John…

 

[ncjohn]

In reading my earlier posts, I can’t find a single place where I said the posture was outlawed, illegal, prohibited (except for priests), forbidden, only the province of heretics, or anything of the sort. My ONLY points were (1) I thought it was not appropriate, for the many reasons stated, and (2) the posture could not be forced on anyone.

I think I qualified my initial post on this that I had not read through the entire thread. I only responded from the beginning to specific points I saw in specific posts, which did contain many implications that it is wrong and inappropriate–not as opinion but as fact based on evidence you presented–along with what I saw as some questionable assumptions about those who hold different opinions.

If that was indeed what you said and believe then you and I really have no problem. I never had any interest in changing your mind as I am not concerned with whether people do or don’t want to participate, only with all of us being able to treat each other with charity and dignity.

Having made those points, there is really no reason for me to continue so I’ll move on to other things.

Peace,

 

[prv]

AMEN!

I try not to look down on people who ignore those of us around them who like to hold hands during the Our Father, but it’s hard when they seem so cold and unfriendly. There’s a woman and her son who sit close to me every Sunday. They could turn water to ice in the boiling sun of a Texas summer day with their cold shoulders.

Yes, yes, I know that Mass is not the time for fellowship.

YOU are the one who is judgemental, it is not, absolutely not YOUR place to judge others on who is cold or unfriendly simply because they do not use a custom not mentioned in the rubrics. BTW, I do hold hands so as to not make a fuss, but I do not prefer it, and I most certainly do not judge others who do not follow this practice as COLD or UNFRIENDLY. Hearing you say that others are cold or unfriendly simply because they do not follow this “custom” makes my blood boil. This is the fastest written post I’ve ever made. Maybe you are the one who needs to change. The priest who staffed a campus chapel I attended made absolutely sure that nobody, and I mean no one, is obligated to hold hands, much less be judged as COLD or such garbage.