Holiness of the Catholic Church

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thecone137 said:
Hey all,

I have a non-Catholic friend who objects to the validity of the Catholic Church’s holiness, because he finds especially persuasive the evidence that demonstrates a lack of consistency in respect to Christ’s visible love amongst Catholics.

More specifically, he observes the bad behavior(sin) of Catholics in his everyday experience, thinks of the good tree/good fruit analogy, and then concludes that the Holy Spirit would dwell amongst only individuals which display consistently good behavior.

I then respond that Christ’s Church (and any other so-called Church) will have good and bad people in it. He concedes this point, but then makes the affirmation that habitually bad behavior would not be found amongst Christ’s true people.

Is it true that habitually bad behavior would not be found in Christ’s true Church, and this an objection of holiness or really just an objection of something else like enforcement of behavior?
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Hmmm … remind you of anyone?

Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
😉
Seriously, Jesus said that His Church would have sinners and saints coexisting.

Mt 13:24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.

Now, this brings up some points relating to the excellent posts from Skye_Ariel and ADF417 (posts 16 and 17). What should be done with sinners in the Church?

Jesus TELLS us: leave them be.

27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’
28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’
29 But he said, ‘No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’"

See also Matt 13:47ff

So, ask your friend why they don’t do as Jesus instructed.
(Of course, this is a general, not absolute, instruction as we see when St. Paul excommunicated a person. We shouldn’t be hasty in doing so, though. )
 
I believe what we need to do to answer any questions on this or other forums is to define words, phrases or categories. The first major instruction would be to match the teaching of the Catholic Church with the correct teaching of the bible. The bible is the tool, the manufacturers handbook so to speak, to define scripture. Let scripture interpret scripture. The biggest problem I see is the lack of research done with the teachings of the bible, ie, with the interpretation of what certain scripture verses meant in the days of the O.T. & N.T. There is only one interpretation & that is God’s interpretation. Certain questions need to be asked when doing an induction study of the bible; Who, what, when, where, why & how. There is only one true church & that is the church that was established on the day of Pentecost. Holiness of the Catholic Church has to infer holiness of its people as the people are the church, the building is not. Any discussion I enter into in these forums will be with the use of the bible,ie,sola scriptura…to keep things objective not subjective.
 
If Jesus kicked all the “less than perfect” people out of HIS church there would be no one left in HIS church as none of us are perfect in the natural, ie, flesh. Remove the log in one’s own eye before telling someone to remove the fleck in theirs, Mat 7:3. there was only one perfect person who kept the law & that was Jesus. We will never ever be perfect in the natural but because of the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross we are perfect in the spiritual when we accept Christ as our Lord & Savior. John 3:16, 1st Thess 2:10 says we are witnesses, holy, righteous, blameless & above reproach.
 
" One thing comes to mind in reading your post. Your friend should be made aware of “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
Catholics may not be perfect Christians, but we have one advantage over Protestants in that matter. We have recourse to Confession and know when are sins are absolved!"

we Protestants have access to the Creator as well my dear fellow-God forgives sins-in Romans Paul argues for inclusiveness not exclusivity-your words seem to be opposed to that-we have the Sacrament of reconciliation as well

We know we are forgiven-can you think of one sin so heinous that the Death of Jesus on the Cross can not atone for-I can not

as do non Christians-a Jew who repents of his/her sins-surely they are forgiven

God forgives not man :cool:​

 
1rocky1 said:
If Jesus kicked all the “less than perfect” people out of HIS church there would be no one left in HIS church as none of us are perfect in the natural, ie, flesh. Remove the log in one’s own eye before telling someone to remove the fleck in theirs, Mat 7:3. there was only one perfect person who kept the law & that was Jesus. We will never ever be perfect in the natural but because of the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross we are perfect in the spiritual when we accept Christ as our Lord & Savior. John 3:16, 1st Thess 2:10 says we are witnesses, holy, righteous, blameless & above reproach.
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Hey Rocky,

My friend conceded that the Christ’s Church does contain sinners. His objection is habitual sinners.
 
thecone137 said:
Hey Rocky,

My friend conceded that the Christ’s Church does contain sinners. His objection is habitual sinners.
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If we are called to forgive our brother seventy times seven times, how much more will our Father in heaven forgive those who fall again and again?
 
Randy_Carson said:
If we are called to forgive our brother seventy times seven times, how much more will our Father in heaven forgive those who fall again and again?
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I don’t think the objection is about the reconciliation process. He is concerned about the consistently bad behavior of those who are 1) not sorry for their actions which means forgiveness cannot be given 2) invincibly ignorant that they are habitually sinning in which the objection goes back to doctrine or enforcement of doctrine as raised by a previous poster.
 
thecone137 said:
Hey Rocky,

My friend conceded that the Christ’s Church does contain sinners. His objection is habitual sinners.
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What kind of sinners was Christ refering to in Matthew 13 (parable of wheat and weeds)?
Occasional, or habitual sinners?

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’"
 
thecone137 said:
I don’t think the objection is about the reconciliation process. He is concerned about the consistently bad behavior of those who are 1) not sorry for their actions which means forgiveness cannot be given 2) invincibly ignorant that they are habitually sinning in which the objection goes back to doctrine or enforcement of doctrine as raised by a previous poster.
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This is true.

Habitual sin can be something that we try (and fail) to overcome with great remorse, repentance, etc.

Or it can be a result of simple indifference in which case there is no true repentance.

Invincible ignorance is another kettle of fish.
 
hello-- i thinks your friend is correct in that it agrees with scripture that saint paul refers to

i 1st cor

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

in any fellowskip – it is wise to realize-- the difference between-- the church goers – who are perverts-- and are not born of the holy Spirit-- and those who are “playing church”

Saint Pul also talks about this issue-- in philippians also

i have left employment at jobs and left catholic meetings- because the individuals were phony christians

The Church and Its Leaders

3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly?

Are you not acting like mere humans?

4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,(work of faith)” and another, “I follow Apollos(Baptist),” are you not mere human beings?
 
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