Holodomor or Holocaust?

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ADL Representatives, which are sensitive to the exclusivity of Jewish tragedy might be right from the lexical standpoint.
The Word ‘‘Holocaust’’ does not quite fit the definition of Ukrainian Genocide.
The word “holocaust” is usually traced to Wycliffe’s translation of the Bible as a burnt offering to the Lord, and indeed it is an English word from the ancient Greek words “kolos” (whole) and “caustos” (to burn). In reference to Hitler’s destruction of the Jews, it came to be used as a not quite exact translation of the Hebrew word “Shoah” (complete and utter destruction), yet evocative of what Hitler tried to do to with a people traditionally considered themselves to be chosen by God, the Jews, to destroy them entirely as a people, including burning them in ovens specially désigned for that purpose. It is not a generic term for a certain kind of crime against any given group but a specific word for a specific event and as such has entered many languages.
The word HOLODOMOR “holod” (hunger or famine) and “mor” (mass death as in a plague)is unique in its kind. ( as well as ‘‘Maidan’’ , the word ‘‘Maidan’’ is a word which describes Ukrainian revolution.)
Well, but in terms of the uniqueness of Jewish tragedy in comparison with the Ukrainian, I would say that even taking into account that the killed Jews as a nation were talented people, the people feel the same pain and all people have the same color blood.
What do you think ?
‘‘Defamation - ADL bullying Ukraine into downplaying the Holodomor as serious as the Holocaust’’
goo.gl/EpXFT7
 
I’m confused (not an uncommon occurrence). Are the ADL objecting to the use of the word “holocaust” to refer to the Holodomor (because they want to limit the use of “holocaust” to only the slaughter of Jews during WWII), or are they objecting to the word “holodomor” because it has “holo” in common with “holocaust” (a completely illogical objection)?
 
The particular issue that you bring up is a little tricky, since there is little information. I watched the entire clip you linked: I see that the people he interviewed were uncomfortable with what he did while also somewhat trying to defend him, but at the same time, I am unsure of what Foxman’s goal is in this. Is he only trying to discourage Unkrainians from mentioning the Holocaust in connection with the Holodomor? Eh, that seems odd to me. Or is he trying to get them to downplay the Holodomor altogether? Which does not seem to be what he is saying.

It may be that he is thinking that instead of others saying, “Wow, it’s two rather than one terrible crimes perpetrated cold-bloodedly by totalitarian regimes in the 1900s,” he fears they will say, “Well, I guess the Holocaust wasn’t so bad since a similar thing happened in the Ukraine”?

It could also possibly be Foxman is thinking proportionately. The population of the Ukriane before the Holodomor was over 28 million; experts seem to agree that the deaths numbered between 2.4 and 7.5 million. The Holocaust took a number within that range of Jewish lives, *but *there were only about 12 million Jews in the world at that time, so they lost 1/2 their people.

Anyway, half of what I have written is speculation; I’d say there is too little information here to draw any conclusions.
 
ADL Representatives, which are sensitive to the exclusivity of Jewish tragedy might be right from the lexical standpoint.
The Word ‘‘Holocaust’’ does not quite fit the definition of Ukrainian Genocide.
The word “holocaust” is usually traced to Wycliffe’s translation of the Bible as a burnt offering to the Lord, and indeed it is an English word from the ancient Greek words “kolos” (whole) and “caustos” (to burn). In reference to Hitler’s destruction of the Jews, it came to be used as a not quite exact translation of the Hebrew word “Shoah” (complete and utter destruction), yet evocative of what Hitler tried to do to with a people traditionally considered themselves to be chosen by God, the Jews, to destroy them entirely as a people, including burning them in ovens specially désigned for that purpose. It is not a generic term for a certain kind of crime against any given group but a specific word for a specific event and as such has entered many languages.
The word HOLODOMOR “holod” (hunger or famine) and “mor” (mass death as in a plague)is unique in its kind. ( as well as ‘‘Maidan’’ , the word ‘‘Maidan’’ is a word which describes Ukrainian revolution.)
Well, but in terms of the uniqueness of Jewish tragedy in comparison with the Ukrainian, I would say that even taking into account that the killed Jews as a nation were talented people, the people feel the same pain and all people have the same color blood.
What do you think ?
‘‘Defamation - ADL bullying Ukraine into downplaying the Holodomor as serious as the Holocaust’’
goo.gl/EpXFT7
The Armenian genocide can also be called the Holocaust, indeed before the 1970s that was what the term the Holocaust normally referred to
 
What do you think ?
I think you should just say what it is that you want to say, directly.

Linking to “what disgusting pigs these kikes are” and “filthy fat f*****g jew swine” sites (the comments section) might otherwise suggest a certain crankiness.
 
ADL Representatives, which are sensitive to the exclusivity of Jewish tragedy might be right from the lexical standpoint.
The Word ‘‘Holocaust’’ does not quite fit the definition of Ukrainian Genocide.
The word “holocaust” is usually traced to Wycliffe’s translation of the Bible as a burnt offering to the Lord, and indeed it is an English word from the ancient Greek words “kolos” (whole) and “caustos” (to burn). In reference to Hitler’s destruction of the Jews, it came to be used as a not quite exact translation of the Hebrew word “Shoah” (complete and utter destruction), yet evocative of what Hitler tried to do to with a people traditionally considered themselves to be chosen by God, the Jews, to destroy them entirely as a people, including burning them in ovens specially désigned for that purpose. It is not a generic term for a certain kind of crime against any given group but a specific word for a specific event and as such has entered many languages.
The word HOLODOMOR “holod” (hunger or famine) and “mor” (mass death as in a plague)is unique in its kind. ( as well as ‘‘Maidan’’ , the word ‘‘Maidan’’ is a word which describes Ukrainian revolution.)
Well, but in terms of the uniqueness of Jewish tragedy in comparison with the Ukrainian, I would say that even taking into account that the killed Jews as a nation were talented people, the people feel the same pain and all people have the same color blood.
What do you think ?
‘‘Defamation - ADL bullying Ukraine into downplaying the Holodomor as serious as the Holocaust’’
goo.gl/EpXFT7
Actual quote of Abe Foxman about the Holodomor, the head of the Anti Defamation League: “But one thing that you need to be sensitive about is not to link it, with the Holocaust. Be careful that it not be linked as your genocide and our genocide, because that would be counter-productive.”
 
Both are terrible tragedies.
In both tragedies the victims are innocent.
The racial problems are solved with education, and its probably understandable that the word Holocaust should not be mentioned in Ukrainian tragedy, because it literally belongs to Jewish tragedy.
But what representative of ADL meant talking about the counterproductivity?
Figures slain by Holodomor ?
Тhe very mention of the famine as one of the greatest tragedy of the 20th century?
Do not attach the importance to the horror of this tragedy?
But it’s been in Soviet times, when we learned that there was no famine, and people were severely punished for any mention about famine.
 
But what representative of ADL meant talking about the counterproductivity?
Figures slain by Holodomor ?
Тhe very mention of the famine as one of the greatest tragedy of the 20th century?
Do not attach the importance to the horror of this tragedy?
But it’s been in Soviet times, when we learned that there was no famine, and people were severely punished for any mention about famine.
Possibly because of the tendency of some Ukrainians to blame Jews for the Holodomor? On the internet, for example, there does seem to be a tendency for certain Ukrainians to provide link, after link, after link to “joozaretoonaughtyforwords.com” sites.

Were some Jews involved in the Soviet Regime’s war against the Kulaks, forced collectivisation, mass-killing by starvation and nation-killing? Indeed there were. Were some Ukrainians involved in historic pogroms and the ‘Final Solution’? Indeed there were. Meanwhile, were some Ukrainians involved in the Soviet Regime’s war against the Kulaks, forced collectivisation, mass-killing by starvation and nation-killing? Indeed there were.

Being born into any people, nation, religion does not immunise people from being psychopathic killers but neither does being born into a people, nation or religion define people as psychopathic killers.
 
Possibly because of the tendency of some Ukrainians to blame Jews for the Holodomor? On the internet, for example, there does seem to be a tendency for certain Ukrainians to provide link, after link, after link to “joozaretoonaughtyforwords.com” sites.

Were some Jews involved in the Soviet Regime’s war against the Kulaks, forced collectivisation, mass-killing by starvation and nation-killing? Indeed there were. Were some Ukrainians involved in historic pogroms and the ‘Final Solution’? Indeed there were. Meanwhile, were some Ukrainians involved in the Soviet Regime’s war against the Kulaks, forced collectivisation, mass-killing by starvation and nation-killing? Indeed there were.

Being born into any people, nation, religion does not immunise people from being psychopathic killers but neither does being born into a people, nation or religion define people as psychopathic killers.
There are Ukrainians who believe that Israel must pay compensation for the famine commited to Ukrainians by Jews.
There is a theory that the idea and the driving force of the destruction of Ukrainian pesants by hunger was undoubtedly Jewish. The idea was born in the Jewish brain. And the Jewish brain was the impetus and driving strength of this crime against humanity, where over a period of just 18 months, on the most fertile land in Europe, 10 million people, a third of them children, were brutally and systematically starved to death…
I deliberately tried to examine the arguments of this theory.
The first thing that surprised me is the fact that those who believe that Israel should pay compensation to the Ukrainians are not professional historians.
Also, I have not seen in the library of any academic study that confirms these statements.
Does this mean that all archives are cleaned?
First in academic circles the scholars believe that even you can not raise the issue of the famine that was commited by Jews, because among the perpetrators there were Georgian, Russians and Ukrainians.
Perhaps we keep silent about something very important and hidden?
Kaganovich died at the ripe old age of 98 in 1991 , ethnically safe from pursuit by the Israeli secret service, the Simon Wiesenthal organization, the New York media-intelligentsia or other hunters of real or imagined war criminals or human rights violators.
Is this the argument that in ruling positions of the GPU in the USSR 1929-1931 there were 38% of Jews, and in the period of holodomor 1932-1933 the Jews were 66.6% of all the heads of the secret police of the republic"?
(Kaganovich,Beria,Yezhov, even Trotsky who in earlier years used to warn about unruly Ukrainian peasants, all of them were also Jews)
Are there the refuting facts?
Even if we assume that many top Communist leaders were Jews?
Is there any justification for the theory according to which all the brutal atrocities of communists in 1920-th, 1930-th, were based on Christian-hateful Talmud?
There are some proves that a lot of the Bolsheviks were not at all religious people, and even renounced the faith of their forefathers.
But is this argument significant to refute the traditional hatred of Jews towards rebellious Ukrainian Christian farmers?
Well, I just would like to read the arguments of people more knowledgeable in history.
 
How are you on the subject of the Beilis trial?
I read an English source by Albert Lindermann, about three affairs - Dreyfus,Beilis and Frank. Lindermann makes use of contemporary documents and proves those accused Jews were innocent scapegoats. The opposing arguments of the powerful Jewish lobby and twisting the facts to be found in Russian sources, including the dirty means to remove witnesses before the trial and so on.
I can not assess the case as well as I can not assess the nature of some Hasidic sects functioning in the post-Soviet space.
Even from a psychological point of view, if we remember that Jews survived centuries of persecution, and when there is an opportunity to take revenge they could behave merciless to the Christians, especially if someone is on the road and prevents the reproductions of plans of global significance.
And what specifically does Beilis trial proves or disproves in relation to our topic?
 
I read an English source by Albert Lindermann, about three affairs - Dreyfus,Beilis and Frank. Lindermann makes use of contemporary documents and proves those accused Jews were innocent scapegoats. The opposing arguments of the powerful Jewish lobby and twisting the facts to be found in Russian sources, including the dirty means to remove witnesses before the trial and so on.
I can not assess the case as well as I can not assess the nature of some Hasidic sects functioning in the post-Soviet space.
Even from a psychological point of view, if we remember that Jews survived centuries of persecution, and when there is an opportunity to take revenge they could behave merciless to the Christians, especially if someone is on the road and prevents the reproductions of plans of global significance.
And what specifically does Beilis trial proves or disproves in relation to our topic?
Actually, I was really going in the direction of talking about the evidence of Justinas Pranaitis as a means of discerning the background of your paradigms and thought processes. Fortunately, your response told me everything I needed to know.
 
Actually, I was really going in the direction of talking about the evidence of Justinas Pranaitis as a means of discerning the background of your paradigms and thought processes. Fortunately, your response told me everything I needed to know.
I understood your arguments which excludes holodomor misinterpretation, and the origins of incorrect superstitions.
Even if there are sects that practice such atrocities it would be similar to the worship of Lucifer and not for God.
Probably the geographic statistics of judicial investigations, or the geographic statistics of cases of missing children including periods of Purim, would constitute the best response to the Justinas Pranaitis charges.
But let’s look from the other side.
I hold a book in my hands written by Jerzy Robert Nowak where there is а list of leaders of the USSR, the organizers of Holodomor in Ukraine regions, the list of names is taken from the official site of Security Service of Ukraine as of March 17, 2009.
Also there are publications of
Andriy Kulish.
‘‘Famine 1932-1933: Causes, victims, criminals’’.
There is also a publication of Sergey Melgunov, known in academic circles about the incredible cruelty, mass killings, including mass ritual killings committed by communists.
What would be your response to such a huge number of Jews in the lists of the organizers and perpetrators of the Holodomor?
 
I understood your arguments which excludes holodomor misinterpretation, and the origins of incorrect superstitions.
The reason I asked that question was to enable me to come to a conclusion about whether it would be possible for the two of us to have a dialogue of any kind.

It is sometimes possible for people from entirely different backgrounds and polar opposite ways of seeing to dialogue - that doesn’t mean that they come to some mutually accepted conclusion of any kind, they might even end up finding their stereotypes are understatements.

The thing is, I don’t think that the two of us could even manage to have a sensible discussion of the weather. 🙂
 
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