Holy Communion & the Eucharist

[Bryan]

You know, for being a possible convert who agrees more with Catholic doctrine than any other, I sure am receiving a lot of ridicule. I’m playing devil’s advocate here because it is apparantly the only way to get answers in this forum. My biggest problem at this point is that I’m offended at the sarcastic remarks and smart-alecness (sp?). In all seriousness, we are all Christians here, I’m as guilty as the next for blowing my top, but lets all be friendly.

I do not agree with 70% of Lutheran doctrine, so I don’t need someone to tell me…

Bible aside, do you believe in prayer? Do you believe that God answers prayers? Ask yourself these questions. Maybe you need to pray and listen to God, not what’s in your logical bible thinking. What do you think they did before the bible was published?
I will keep you in my prayers.

I’m sorry, but even if it was posted with completely good intentions, it was posted with a tone easily read and dually not appreciated.

 

[mercygate]

Bryan – pardon my deletions from your original post; it is for brevity. I trust I did not distort your meaning in any way.

Bryan:

John 20:22-23 - Which states “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

These two segments are biblical proof that Jesus gave the power to man to forgive sins through confession. If you read the four versus before Matt 9:8, you will see even more why.

Mt. 9:8 is about Jesus forgiving sins. I do not see how to interpret that particular pericope as a general commission.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod also practices confession to a Pastor. They do so because it is said in the Bible that men have that power. Do you see the difference here?

I do not see the difference in relation to Mt. 9:8

How long has the LCME been practicing confession to a Pastor? Research I did a couple of years ago lead me to conclude that it was only around 1946 that a very few Lutherans (partly in response to Luther’s reluctance to give up sacramental confession) began to rebuild the practice. If I recall, the attempted restoration originated in Germany – but that could be a faulty recollection. I do remember reading that since Lutherans do not have Apostolic Succession, and thus cannot claim the authority of John 20:23, the rationale for absolution was that the words of Scripture held that power. . .

At least If you take them for face value without any prior motive, they speak a truth. But as soon as you begin interpreting them, you could say “Well, in John, he breathed upon his disciples and said that, so…only catholic priests could give absolution through confession since it all started there.” And most likely, the Catholic Church does say that, unfortunately.

Catholics don’t think it’s unfortunate at all! As a convert, I can testify that this sacrament, and the assurance of that Scripture is one of the best things about being Catholic.

I don’t want tradition, I was biblical proof why I should believe non-catholics are going to hell.

Where did you GET that? Catholics do not believe non-Catholics all go to Hell. And if you don’t want Tradition (as contrasted with “vain traditions of men”) you’ve come to the wrong place. Scripture and Tradition are the two pillars of the Church.

You’re a smart guy, Bryan. By now you know that the doctrine of scriptural inerrancy originated in the Catholic Church, and you know that even Luther said that without the Papists, we wouldn’t know anything of Scripture. And you also know that Tradition is one key to interpreting Scripture. Catholics can give Scriptural references for Catholic positions; but they will balance them against Sacred Tradition.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Bryan:

Then here is a viable question…

If the Catholic Church recognizes non-catholic baptism as viable and ligitimate, then why not non-catholic communion?

If according to old catholic tradition that a priest must be catholic to make these things happen, then shouldn’t a non-catholic baptism be iligitimate?

Because Baptism is the only Sacrament necessary for Salvation. The Church makes provision that anyone who wishes to be Baptized may possibly have the opportunity at the hand of any other.

 

[mercygate]

Bryan:

I do not agree with 70% of Lutheran doctrine, so I don’t need someone to tell me…

Teasing here: Bryan, you’ll be in trouble converting to the Catholic Church from the LCMS if you don’t agree with 70% of Lutheran doctrine because about 90% of LCMS and Catholic doctrine overlap!

 

[serenity]

Bryan:

You know, for being a possible convert who agrees more with Catholic doctrine than any other, I sure am receiving a lot of ridicule. I’m playing devil’s advocate here because it is apparantly the only way to get answers in this forum. My biggest problem at this point is that I’m offended at the sarcastic remarks and smart-alecness (sp?). In all seriousness, we are all Christians here, I’m as guilty as the next for blowing my top, but lets all be friendly.

I do not agree with 70% of Lutheran doctrine, so I don’t need someone to tell me…

I’m sorry, but even if it was posted with completely good intentions, it was posted with a tone easily read and dually not appreciated.

I’m sorry for my post Bryan. I was not trying to ridicule you or be sarcastic. I was only trying to get you to reach out prayerful about this subject. I’m sorry if I, personally, couldn’t give you the answer you needed.

 

[Bryan]

Wow…

Okay, finally I feel that I have some answers. I must also apologize for play devil’s advocate on most of these questions. In truth, I agree with Catholic Church, Traditional, Papacy, and Liturgical doctrine on many levels, the most in fact. Truth is, when I read the doctrine of any church and then ask its followers, I get a mixed response of those who have no idea their church believes that, and those who want to tell me I’m wrong when all I do is recite the doctrine. I can see that good Catholics are not in that boat and I like that.

Thanks to everyone who participated and no hard feelings. I’m still planning on converting and I actually just ordered a rosary ring off the internet so that I can begin learning the rosary. Eventually I’ll save up and get an actual rosary Of course, I also advocate that people of all Christian faiths should take part in the holy rosary, it is a great practice and tool for prayer. If anyone can help me with one thing though…where/when did Mary make the 15 promises?

-Bryan

 

[mercygate]

Bryan:

Wow…

I actually just ordered a rosary ring off the internet so that I can begin learning the rosary. Eventually I’ll save up and get an actual rosary Of course, I also advocate that people of all Christian faiths should take part in the holy rosary, it is a great practice and tool for prayer. If anyone can help me with one thing though…where/when did Mary make the 15 promises?

-Bryan

This is said to date from the time of St. Dominic (d. 1220) How about starting a new thread if you want to go further with this?

 

[deacon]

Bryan:

Wow…

Okay, finally I feel that I have some answers. I must also apologize for play devil’s advocate on most of these questions. In truth, I agree with Catholic Church, Traditional, Papacy, and Liturgical doctrine on many levels, the most in fact. Truth is, when I read the doctrine of any church and then ask its followers, I get a mixed response of those who have no idea their church believes that, and those who want to tell me I’m wrong when all I do is recite the doctrine. I can see that good Catholics are not in that boat and I like that.

Thanks to everyone who participated and no hard feelings. I’m still planning on converting and I actually just ordered a rosary ring off the internet so that I can begin learning the rosary. Eventually I’ll save up and get an actual rosary Of course, I also advocate that people of all Christian faiths should take part in the holy rosary, it is a great practice and tool for prayer. If anyone can help me with one thing though…where/when did Mary make the 15 promises?

-Bryan

hey Bryan

i want to commend you in you questions and insights, you ar well read and very intelligent. i have read this intire tread and was also discouraged by the rederick. i would like to offer my opinion in your original question.
since the time of Christ and his divine revelation to the world, he imparted certain power to his disciples, but remember that there were those who where casting out demons in his name. the discipes were upset but Christ was not. those who beleived were in a radical and different lifestyle then the establisment (jewish culture). Jn 6:66 states that many walk away fron him because of this teaching, (eucharist) he let them walk away. so we (you and me) know this is real and it is truth! remebmer that that God gave Peter the keys to the kingdom because of his answer to who he was! history conotates that Peter and Paul died in rome, Martyred for their faith.from then on the Christian Church (Catholic meaning universal in the greek) elected a new head to take care of doctrinal decisions about who was Christ, devine of human and allthe herisy that was thrown at the Chruch trying to destroy what she beleives. this is the role of the pope, Catholics beleive that he is infalible on issues of faith and morals. have to do whith the christian faith. if you read some of jpII’s writings you can understand why he is a brillent pholosopher.
this was challenged throughout history 1st by the great western shcism catholic- othodox split, luther, henrey VIII. even though the orthodox spilt the remained the same, they did not change their faith or liturgy. remember the bishops left, so they could still ordain priest. like it speaks about the laying on of hands int the scriptures with mathias (i think) any way after judus killed himself and the disiples look for another apostle, also paul and steven and the other decons.
luther was a priest and did make a break and in my opinion he was right but i also think he went to far. when he broke and abolished most of the sacraments the church had enough and excommunicated him. now remember only a bishop can ordain a priest. even though the good people of the luthern church beleive Christ is present and he could be in spirit or through the Holy Spirit, the liniage of the laying on of hands stopped at that point. if luther himself said the eucharistic prayer it would be christ’s true presseance as catholics know it. this is why we have the disunity of christains today. it’s the fault of catholic mistakes and luthers disobedience to the vows that he took in frount of God. we are not so different but the hostility and rederic you were hearing was and emotional responce to something that is the center and core belief of catholic faith.
deacon

 

[deacon]

continuing on some anglican bishops and preist still have the apostolic liniage of ordination, and some luthren ministers seek out anglican bishops to ordain them so the can properly confect the eucharist (in the catholic sence of the word). that tells me that some ministers really care about the people they serve and want them to experience God first hand.

let me end with this Catholics don’t beleive that protestants are going to hell. we simple await a reunion with our brothers and sisters so that together we can witness God’s love to the world.

Pease Brother
May God bless you in your journey to Him.
Deaconhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif