"Holy Mother" Help!

[Grahame]

I recently was chatting to a friend of mine who changed religion to Islam. Amonst other things the following:-

1. Mary is the mother of Jesus - ok, then why do we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God…”

Surely Jesus is not God. God is Jesus’ father???

Then why do we say this is the Hail Mary?

Please help if you can because he got me into a state of confusion too!

 

[YAQUBOS]

Grace to you, my friend!

In fact, Mary is not literally mother of God. But the Church created this word ( like the word “trinity” ) in order to be able to explain that Jesus is both God and human, and that the Word BECAME human, and not just took on Him human flesh.

This is of course a point that Muslims don’t understand, because they don’t want to believe that God actually became HUMAN, and that this same HUMAN is GOD!

In brief: Mary is the mother of that incarnated Word. But in order to clarify that the Word really BECAME human, we needed to make the word “mother of God”.

God doesn’t have a mother, but Mary became the Mother of the incarnated Word who is God.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[jimmy]

YAQUBOS:

Grace to you, my friend!

In fact, Mary is not literally mother of God. But the Church created this word ( like the word “trinity” ) in order to be able to explain that Jesus is both God and human, and that the Word BECAME human, and not just took on Him human flesh.

This is of course a point that Muslims don’t understand, because they don’t want to believe that God actually became HUMAN, and that this same HUMAN is GOD!

In brief: Mary is the mother of that incarnated Word. But in order to clarify that the Word really BECAME human, we needed to make the word “mother of God”.

God doesn’t have a mother, but Mary became the Mother of the incarnated Word who is God.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

It sounds like you are a nestorian. The nestorians thought that Jesus was two destinct persons, one human and one divine. The nestorians rejected the fact that Mary is the mother of God and said that she was only the mother of the human Jesus. There still are a few nestorians in the middle east. They only accept 22 of the New Testament books.

This is an outright heresy.

The truth is, he is one person, both human and devine at the same time.

Yes, Mary is literally The mother of God. She bore Jesus in her womb for nine months. Jesus is literally God, so there is no way you can get around the fact that she is the mother of God.

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the** mother of her lord** in Luke chapter 1.

Mary is refered to as th Mother of Christ 25 times in the New Testament.

Irenaous talks about Mary in his writings
Irenaeus, a Christian scholar who was born about 130 A.D. and who had been taught the Christian Faith by a disciple of the Apostle John, records what was the early Christian understanding of Mary’s part in the redemption as compared with Eve’s part in the fall. Irenaeus was familiar with those who had been close both to Peter and to Paul and who “had still the preaching of the blessed Apostles ringing in their ears.” He testifies that the same preaching of the truth which the Church received from the Apostles had come down to him, and consequently “one and the very same life-giving faith had been preserved in the Church and was handed down in its purity and integrity from the Apostles even to his own day” (Ad. Haer. 3, 3).

“As Eve was seduced,” he wrote, “by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing His word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel’s speech, so as to bear God within her, being obedient to this word. And, though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey Him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and, as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved - a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’s obedience” (Adv. Haer, 3, 19).

 

[Melchior]

jimmy:

It sounds like you are a nestorian. The nestorians thought that Jesus was two destinct persons, one human and one divine. The nestorians rejected the fact that Mary is the mother of God and said that she was only the mother of the human Jesus. There still are a few nestorians in the middle east. They only accept 22 of the New Testament books.

This is an outright heresy.

The truth is, he is one person, both human and devine at the same time.

Yes, Mary is literally The mother of God. She bore Jesus in her womb for nine months. Jesus is literally God, so there is no way you can get around the fact that she is the mother of God.

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the** mother of her lord** in Luke chapter 1.

Mary is refered to as th Mother of Christ 25 times in the New Testament.

Irenaous talks about Mary in his writings
Irenaeus, a Christian scholar who was born about 130 A.D. and who had been taught the Christian Faith by a disciple of the Apostle John, records what was the early Christian understanding of Mary’s part in the redemption as compared with Eve’s part in the fall. Irenaeus was familiar with those who had been close both to Peter and to Paul and who “had still the preaching of the blessed Apostles ringing in their ears.” He testifies that the same preaching of the truth which the Church received from the Apostles had come down to him, and consequently “one and the very same life-giving faith had been preserved in the Church and was handed down in its purity and integrity from the Apostles even to his own day” (Ad. Haer. 3, 3).

“As Eve was seduced,” he wrote, “by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing His word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel’s speech, so as to bear God within her, being obedient to this word. And, though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey Him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and, as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved - a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’s obedience” (Adv. Haer, 3, 19).

I don’t think he was trying to sound Nestorian. It seems to me he was trying to help Grahame explain the history of the term for the sake of the audience. In this case a Muslim. The term Theotokos was coined as a Christological statement. It is all about Jesus and to show that he is fully God and fully man. One person two natures. If we say to a non-Christian that Mary is the mother of God they could take that to mean that God came into existence through Mary. We know that that is not what Mother of God means. The term and theology behind the title Mother of God is not about Mary so much as it is about Jesus. Mary carried and gave birth to God Incarnate. She is the mother of God Incarnate.

I could be wrong but Yaqubos does not sound Nestorian to me since he was not challenging the term, merely explaining it.

Mel

 

[puzzleannie]

Mary is Mother of God, Theotokos, confirmed in that title by Coucil of Ephesus and other early councils, I am sure CA has a tract defining this, go to AAA.

 

[jimmy]

Grahame:

I recently was chatting to a friend of mine who changed religion to Islam. Amonst other things the following:-

1. Mary is the mother of Jesus - ok, then why do we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God…”

Surely Jesus is not God. God is Jesus’ father???

Then why do we say this is the Hail Mary?

Please help if you can because he got me into a state of confusion too!

Grahame, Christianity is centered around the fact that man fel of his own free will and God came down to redeem us. Jesus is definitly God. God is three persons but one being. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God the Son. They are all the same being though, so yes he is God.

Mary concieved and bore Christ in her womb for nine months making her the mother of Christ. If she is the mother of Christ, and Christ is God, then how can she not be the mother of God?

The only way you can get around this is if you deny that God and Jesus are the same. That is the nestorian heresy as stated in the post above.

So Mary is the mother of God. God is omnipotent, so he can definitly make himself a mother. He is not bound by the rules of nature.

 

[jimmy]

Melchior:

I don’t think he was trying to sound Nestorian. It seems to me he was trying to help Grahame explain the history of the term for the sake of the audience. In this case a Muslim. The term Theotokos was coined as a Christological statement. It is all about Jesus and to show that he is fully God and fully man. One person two natures. If we say to a non-Christian that Mary is the mother of God they could take that to mean that God came into existence through Mary. We know that that is not what Mother of God means. The term and theology behind the title Mother of God is not about Mary so much as it is about Jesus. Mary carried and gave birth to God Incarnate. She is the mother of God Incarnate.

I could be wrong but Yaqubos does not sound Nestorian to me since he was not challenging the term, merely explaining it.

Mel

I may have jumped the gun and not thought about what I read. If I am wrong, I apologize to Yaqubos.

But in my defense, it sounded as if he was separating the devinity of Christ and the human nature of Christ.

If I am wrong, I apologize.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Melchior:

I don’t think he was trying to sound Nestorian. It seems to me he was trying to help Grahame explain the history of the term for the sake of the audience. In this case a Muslim. The term Theotokos was coined as a Christological statement. It is all about Jesus and to show that he is fully God and fully man. One person two natures. If we say to a non-Christian that Mary is the mother of God they could take that to mean that God came into existence through Mary. We know that that is not what Mother of God means. The term and theology behind the title Mother of God is not about Mary so much as it is about Jesus. Mary carried and gave birth to God Incarnate. She is the mother of God Incarnate.

I could be wrong but Yaqubos does not sound Nestorian to me since he was not challenging the term, merely explaining it.

Mel

Dear Melchior, I thank God for you understood.

Dear Jimmy, no problem. I forgive you in the Name of Jesus.

There are some people who just think about contradicting others, forgetting the Muslims who are dying in their sins…

Dear friends, I don’t think anyone of you believes that the divine nature of Jesus had a beginning. So let’s clearly explain this to Muslims.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[mercygate]

Nice job, Yaqubos! People who ask these questions are looking for a short answer (even if there isn’t one!).

The distinction between “nature” and “person” is one that constantly tangles our understanding. Something like hypostatic union can make us all dizzy. We’re all like Augustine who says, “I believe that I may understand.”

 

[Mijoy2]

jimmy:

It sounds like you are a nestorian. The nestorians thought that Jesus was two destinct persons, one human and one divine. The nestorians rejected the fact that Mary is the mother of God and said that she was only the mother of the human Jesus. There still are a few nestorians in the middle east. They only accept 22 of the New Testament books.

This is an outright heresy.

The truth is, he is one person, both human and devine at the same time.

.

Question, just how important is it to our salvation that we, as Catholics, fully comprehend a doctrine such as this? My experience is that the VAST majority of Catholics are not aware just what they are to understand about Jesus’s divinity.

The Holy Trinity is a concept that is difficult for many theologians let alone laymen of the Faith.

You stated this as “outright heresy”. Maybe so, but is our God a God of trick questions on a surprise quiz that we MUST pass in order to be justified?

As is possibly apparent from my tone, I find these *details *to be somewhat beside the point. Now to clarify, I do not use the word “detail” in the sense that it is insignificant; Jesus’s deivine nature is anything but insignificant. I use the word “details” more in the construct of; I sure hope our Faith is not more of an intellectual pursuit then a spiritual one. I can’t picture being asked a series of trick questions at the gate of Heaven with a trap door that will open if I get the answer wrong, sending me fallling into darkness.

“Was Jesus two distinct persons, one divine and one human” true of false? BETTER GET IT RIGHT!!!

 

[JimG]

Muslims do not accept that Jesus is God. Neither do they accept the incarnation, that God became man. Neither do they accept the Trinity. So naturally they don’t accept that Mary is the Mother of God, since to them, Jesus is not God. In fact, to Muslims, he is only a prophet, but Mohammed is the last of the prophets, and he came after Jesus.

If you are going to have a religious discussion with a Muslim, you have a lot of work ahead of you.

With respect to Jesus, the truth is clear:
Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

That doesn’t mean she created Him. It means that He chose her to be his mother.

 

[JimG]

YAQUBOS:

In fact, Mary is not literally mother of God. . . . Mary is the mother of that incarnated Word. But in order to clarify that the Word really BECAME human, we needed to make the word “mother of God”. God doesn’t have a mother, but Mary became the Mother of the incarnated Word who is God.

In fact, Mary is literally the mother of God, in the very same sense that your own mother is your mother.

Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, who is God. In becoming human, he chose Mary as his mother. Now, Persons have mothers, not natures. Do you say of your own mother: “She is the mother of my body only, but not of my soul.”? No, you say, she is MY mother. Neither does Jesus say of his mother, “she is the mother of my human nature only, but not of me.” No, because natures don’t have mothers. Persons do.

 

[tru_dvotion]

JimG

How simply and beautifully you explained it all!
Simple truth is always simple.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

Wow, how simple… People are comparing Jesus to themselves… Well, can anyone explain then why Jesus said:

“the Father is greater than I” ( John 14:28 )

And, please explain it in the SAME simple way you did before…

How can you say that the MYSTERY of incarnation is so simple?..

Whatever…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

theophilus_agape@hotmail.com

 

[tru_dvotion]

It is simple my friend. God so loved the world that he sent his only son…

 

[JimG]

Jesus is one Person with two natures, human and divine. As a person with a human nature, he could certainly say “The Father is greater than I.” As a divine person with a divine nature, He could also say, “The Father and I are one.”

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

So now the simple explanations create problems, as we can see in the following statements:

JimG:

In fact, Mary is literally the mother of God, in the very same sense that your own mother is your mother.

Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, who is God. In becoming human, he chose Mary as his mother. Now, Persons have mothers, not natures. Do you say of your own mother: “She is the mother of my body only, but not of my soul.”? No, you say, she is MY mother. Neither does Jesus say of his mother, “she is the mother of my human nature only, but not of me.” No, because natures don’t have mothers. Persons do.

And then:

JimG:

Jesus is one Person with two natures, human and divine. As a person with a human nature, he could certainly say “The Father is greater than I.” As a divine person with a divine nature, He could also say, “The Father and I are one.”

Once Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and no distinction between the two natures of Jesus. And suddenly in a next reply Jesus is acting and saying things **AS **having a certain nature…

You can’t continue in faith with vain human philosophy!

The incarnation is a mystery that even the Apostles didn’t try to explain! When talking about the blessed virgin Mary, they never call her “Mother of God”. They always respect this great mystery of incarnation, so they call her “His mother” or “mother of my Lord”…

And Jesus Himself respected this great mystery, and He always talked as the sent of the Father.

But many people today want to talk about all this in a very simple way, and they become a stumbling stone to people like Muslims…

Mary isn’t literally the mother of God, because God has no mother.

And more:

Mary can’t even be called mother of God just because she is the mother of Jesus, because it is written about Melchizedek as a symbol of the Christ:

“Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.” ( Hebrews 7:3 )

Without father, without mother…

Let’s be clear, my friends: Jesus is the incarnated Word of God, and the Word is God. Let’s not try to simplify the mystery of incarnation.

God is one. We don’t believe that God is Jesus, but we strongly believe that Jesus is God. So let’s explain this clearly to the Muslims.

And let’s also remember that Mary is called by many Christians as “Mother of God” just for the glory of Jesus Christ.

Let’s respect the truth about the Trinity, and not deny it by saying Mary is the mother of God LITERALLY. Because if we say this, we deny the Trinity. If we say Mary is the mother of God, and as God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit, and as she is not the mother of the Father nor of the Holy Spirit, then we are denying the Trinity indirectly.

Let’s love each other as Jesus loved us, and stop disputing on words created by vain human mind.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

theophilus_agape@hotmail.com

 

[JimG]

That all sounds pretty complicated to me.
The Trinity is surely a mystery. It is not a contradiction.

Yes, “Jesus is the incarnated Word of God, and the Word is God.”

What does that mean? “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.”

How did the Word become incarnated?
Through the action of the Holy Spirit, in the womb of the virgin Mary, the mother whom He chose.

And the Word is God.