Holy or terrible: Good Saints and Bad Saints?

[newcalling]

I do not know many saints, but I don’t know of any who were bad people. There are rumors about various saints, and other versions of their history, but I don’t know and I leave it to God.

Anyway, I was wondering, what if a person was really awful in life; mean, cruel, greedy and sexually promiscuous, but did some important things for the church or impacted history in a way that the church declares them a saint? I don’t have a saint or saint candidate in mind. Does the Apostolic Authority of the church make them saints and clear out all of their sins? “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven.” “Whoever’s sins you forgive are forgiven…” What if they were in Hell, Hades or Sheol (depending on how you view it) do they get to be immigrants in Heaven? If so, would they have to go through purgatory?

Some of you may believe either that the church is incapable of such a mistake, or that the Holy Spirit would prevent it from happening. You may be right, but it is a purely hypothetical question.

Semi-related question; Is the prayer of a canonized saint more powerful than one from another person in Heaven? I mean, say you have a deceased family member or good friend who was a really good person and devout Catholic; would asking them to pray for you be less valuable? How do both compare to the prayers of other living people?

 

[pianistclare]

Mean and greedy persons would not qualify to be saints. Why would you think the Church would canonize someone unworthy or someone not behaving as an exemplary person?
that is the purpose of canonized saints. To be an example for us.
It’s fine to ask your parents or anyone who led a just life to pray for you, I often ask my deceased parents to pray for me.

 

[Rolltide]

Well, Paul was responsible for the murder of Christians before his conversion to Christianity. It doesn’t get much worse than that. St. Augustine was very worldly in his youth, getting drunk and having lots of sexual relations with women before his conversion. There are plenty of saints that led terrible lives before choosing a path toward God.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, Paul was responsible for the murder of Christians before his conversion to Christianity. It doesn’t get much worse than that. St. Augustine was very worldly in his youth, getting drunk and having lots of sexual relations with women before his conversion. There are plenty of saints that led terrible lives before choosing a path toward God.

Yes, but the point is they had a CONVERSION of heart.
No one without a conversion of heart becomes a saint.
That’s what repentance is all about. CHANGE.

Everyone is a sinner to some degree. Right?
It’s how we reject sin that makes us worthy of sainthood.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

I do not know many saints, but I don’t know of any who were bad people. There are rumors about various saints, and other versions of their history, but I don’t know and I leave it to God.

Depends a lot on how you define ‘bad people’. None of the Saints were perfect. Moses killed a man. St. Peter denied Christ 3 times and abandoned Him. St. Thomas refused to believe Christ had risen until he saw with his own eyes. St. Paul was once the Church’s greatest persecutor and played a hand in the killing of St. Stephen. He arrested, murdered and harassed Christians until his conversion. St. Augustine was a notorious playboy and fell often into sins of all kinds. The list goes on.

I don’t consider any of these amazing souls to be “bad people”. In fact each of them is totally inspirational. It is in their failings and humanity that we all may find hope.

Anyway, I was wondering, what if a person was really awful in life; mean, cruel, greedy and sexually promiscuous, but did some important things for the church or impacted history in a way that the church declares them a saint?

I think you have a slightly failed notion of how the Church goes about declaring a saint. Being declared a saint simply means that the Church has good reason to believe a person’s soul has made it to heaven.

The end.

How many works of charity a person did, how often they gave money to the church, whatever impact on history they had is completely and totally moot unless and until the church has reason to believe the soul is in heaven. This is why Blessed Mother Teresa hasn’t been declared a Saint yet. I mean, she was world famous for her good works, her care of the poor, her dedication to the Lord. If earthly good works were enough reason for the Church to name someone a Saint, I assure you, Blessed Mother Teresa would be Sainted several times over.

But she isn’t. Well, not yet, anyhow.

Why? Because no matter how many good works a person does on earth, it is difficult to say with absolute certainty that they made it into heaven. How can we know the sins that weigh on another person’s soul? We cannot. Only God can judge justly. I’m a big fan of Blessed Mother Teresa, and I’m sure she will be declared a saint at some point in the future once the Church receives proof that she’s made it to heaven (you can google the cannonization process for more info about how they get that)

I don’t have a saint or saint candidate in mind. Does the Apostolic Authority of the church make them saints and clear out all of their sins? “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven.” “Whoever’s sins you forgive are forgiven…” What if they were in Hell, Hades or Sheol (depending on how you view it) do they get to be immigrants in Heaven? If so, would they have to go through purgatory?

Again, this is an error of the canonization process. You’ve put the cart in front of the horse. The Church does not “make” saints. A person is a saint by virtue of being in heaven already. The Church simply names the ones that it is aware of. There are many saints in heaven that the Church hasn’t named.

Therefore if a soul is in hell, hades, or sheol, that person is-- by definition --not a saint, as they are not in heaven.

Now, you ask if the church makes a mistake and a soul that is in hell gets declared a saint through some error. What difference does it make?

Hmmmmmmm… zero.

Why? Because naming a person a saint doesn’t forgive their sins. In fact the church teaches that a person cannot be given absolution after death (which is why Confession and Last Rites are so important!!)

Once you are dead… game over. No more chances at repentance. No priest can take your confession. The state you die in is the state you are received into the afterlife in.

Which is why we pray for God to have mercy on us all.

But, I digress. The point is that being declared a saint doesn’t get you into heaven. Getting into heaven is what gets you declared a saint. Make sense?

Semi-related question; Is the prayer of a canonized saint more powerful than one from another person in Heaven? I mean, say you have a deceased family member or good friend who was a really good person and devout Catholic; would asking them to pray for you be less valuable? How do both compare to the prayers of other living people?

Cannonized or not, if they’re in heaven then they are by definition a Saint. There are many non-cannonized saints. As you mentioned, we all may have family or friends who made it to Heaven. The only reason they are not cannonized is because we have no proof that they are there. That’s not to say that they are not good people, or that they were not devout. As I mentioned above, Blessed Mother Teresa isn’t canonized yet.

But we must be careful in presuming to know who is in heaven and who is not. There is always the possibility that even the most devout may need to spend some time in Purgatory being purified prior to receiving their eternal reward. Remember, this is not a punishment, but rather a merciful grace of the Lord. Not one of us is perfect.

Now, having said that, theoretically if you were absolutely positive that your relative was in heaven, then yes, you could ask them to pray for you just as you could any of the saints.

How to the prayers of saints stack up to those of the living? Well, the saints are much more alive than we are, and they are closer to the Lord. By their presence in heaven we know they are ‘righteous’ and Christ tells us that the prayers of the righteous are incredibly powerful.

I hope that answered your questions. I’ve been studying for a long time, but just came into the Church this Easter, so if I missed anything I welcome correction from those who know better.

Hope that helped & God bless

 

[newcalling]

Peace: yes, more than anyone so far, you gave some great answers. I did not misunderstand the canonization process, but I do know how history can be whitewashed. I will not bad-mouth a saint nor a saint candidate, but there are a few of both who have both good and quite disreputable reputations, depending upon who’s version of history and which point of view is used. I am not talking about people who repented, but who allegedly did terrible things up to the end. I am tempted to give examples, but I will not disrespect their memories in case the negative version of their history is wrong; besides, it would turn this thread into a big argument about those saints or candidates and sidetrack it.

The crux of these questions was about the nature of a saint being canonized and whether Apostolic Authority applies to it in any way or changes anything. Your answers were well thought out. Thank you. I’m mainly trying to understand so that I can address the concerns of some friends who are not Catholic. I suppose that the next hypothetical question is; If the church canonizes someone mistakenly, and that person is not in Heaven, do the prayers just bounce back? Are they heard by denizens of Hell? Do they get taken up by a different saint or angel? (I will get these questions asked of me. ) Anyone is free to give an answer to these or the original questions of course.

 

[pianistclare]

I honestly cannot think of anyone who as you say “were bad up until the end” that was eventually canonize a saint.
That is just incomprehensible. That fact if it were true, would eliminate them from the canonization process.

Peace: yes, more than anyone so far, you gave some great answers. I did not misunderstand the canonization process, but I do know how history can be whitewashed. I will not bad-mouth a saint nor a saint candidate, but there are a few of both who have both good and quite disreputable reputations, depending upon who’s version of history and which point of view is used. I am not talking about people who repented, but who allegedly did terrible things up to the end. I am tempted to give examples, but I will not disrespect their memories in case the negative version of their history is wrong; besides, it would turn this thread into a big argument about those saints or candidates and sidetrack it.

The crux of these questions was about the nature of a saint being canonized and whether Apostolic Authority applies to it in any way or changes anything. Your answers were well thought out. Thank you. I’m mainly trying to understand so that I can address the concerns of some friends who are not Catholic. I suppose that the next hypothetical question is; If the church canonizes someone mistakenly, and that person is not in Heaven, do the prayers just bounce back? Are they heard by denizens of Hell? Do they get taken up by a different saint or angel? (I will get these questions asked of me. ) Anyone is free to give an answer to these or the original questions of course.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

I’ll take a stab at answering your further questions. Realize I’m not a priest or any authority at all, so what you’re getting are my thoughts and opinions and not cannon law, and most of the things you are asking aren’t covered in the Bible.

If the church canonizes someone mistakenly, and that person is not in Heaven, do the prayers just bounce back?

As far as I know, prayers don’t ‘bounce’ anywhere. When you pray, really you are just having a conversation with God or with a member of the Communion of Saints. If you were speaking with a friend, and that friend suddenly walked away, do your words “bounce back” to you?

Nah. Just the person you were trying to speak with wasn’t there. Simple as that.

That doesn’t mean that nobody heard what you said, or what you asked. Simply that the person you were addressing wasn’t present when you said it.

Are they heard by denizens of Hell?

In the hypothetical we are discussing you said that a person was mistakenly declared a saint, while in reality his soul is in hell. Later, someone tries to pray to that “saint”. Can the “saint” in hell hear those prayers.

Not likely.

If you read up on the Saints who were given revelations of hell (particularly St. Gemma Galgani) you find again and again that they describe a place of spiritual torment, horrible dispair, a total loss of hope and a disconnect from the presence of God, the love of Christ, etc. In most descriptions given, the souls cannot pray for themselves, and very often cannot see or hear anything that could give them hope.

Of course that answer is based only upon the readings of a few saints who were given revelations, and not upon scripture, and one must always remember that anything is possible through the endless mercies of the Lord.

Do they get taken up by a different saint or angel? (I will get these questions asked of me. ) Anyone is free to give an answer to these or the original questions of course.

Always remember that the final destination of our prayers is to God Almighty.

We ask other people to pray for us, we ask Saints above to pray for us. We ask for Holy Mary to intercede for us with her Son. Always, always, always must we remember that ultimately it is God who holds the ultimate authority who answers our prayers.

And God knows what you need before you ask for it. He hears every word you say whether you are praying or not. (Every idle word )

So if you are earnestly praying, but the “saint” you are praying to is not around, fear not. It is possible that some other angel or saint might be eves-dropping and take up your cause, but whether they do or not, your prayer HAS been heard by God, the Father Almighty.

No prayer of good intention is ever said in vain.

Hope that helps when you talk to your friends. Again, if anyone knows any different please correct me.

God Bless

 

[newcalling]

Thank you Peace. Yes, that helps.

God bless.