Holy Scripture before there was scripture?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ingram
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

Ingram

Guest
Since scripture was not created until the Catholic Church decided upon the legitimacy of the books of the Bible, what then was Paul referring to here:
…you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17).
It cannot be just the Jewish canon: even this was not formally written down until later, I believe. What then?
 
Jesus studied scripture as a child and taught it first as a child of twelve in the temple, quoted holy scripture many times during his public life and was the fulfilment of many prophesies in the Old Testament as in Isaiah, eg Isaiah 53.

The Catholic Church did not create holy scripture, God did*;

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

Includes the statement

**105 **God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69
*"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

**106 **God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71
 
Since scripture was not created until the Catholic Church decided upon the legitimacy of the books of the Bible, what then was Paul referring to here:
…you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17).
It cannot be just the Jewish canon: even this was not formally written down until later, I believe. What then?
The Septuagint, put together in the 3rd century B.C., would be what St. Paul was referring to.
 
As far as the New Testament is concerned, these books were quoted extensively by the early church fathers of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries. Every book of the New Testament was quoted during this time.

There are 30 pages of scriptural citations in the index of Vol.IX of The Ante-Nicene Fathers. pgs.236-266.

In the Apostolic Constitutions, Vol. VII almost every book from the Old and New Testaments are quoted or given reference. There are indications from this book, or parts of this book that the origins might go back to 90 AD.
  1. The Old testament is quoted more than the New Testament (not true for any other early church writing), thus it is likely that the writers of this book were either Jewish Christians or disciples of Jewish Christians.
  2. Both the Sabbath and the Lord’s day were observed along with other Jewish liturgical customs.
  3. There is a listing of the names of heretics who lived up to 90 AD which corresponds to the heretics and their times found in The History of the Church by Eusebius (The only exception being Marcus) Vol VII, Book VI, Apostolic Constitutions, pg. 453
  4. There is a listing of the names of bishops who lived up to 90 AD which corresponds to the partial listing of the bishops and their times found in the same History by Eusebius.
    Vol. VII, Book VII, Apostolic Constitutions, pgs.477-478.
  5. There is the curious reference to the supposed brothers of Bishop Clement of Rome, (Aquila and Nicetas).
 
Ingram,

Question:
Since scripture was not created until the Catholic Church decided upon the legitimacy of the books of the Bible, what then was Paul referring to here:
…you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17).
It cannot be just the Jewish canon: even this was not formally written down until later, I believe. What then?
Answer:

It was the what we now call the Old Testament, even though the canon had not been finally agreed.
 

Hi Guys I am Erwin. I like this post and I respect this religion.
The reason why this is important is there’s an effort by the Left to say that Jesus was a socialist," said Limbaugh, "and they are using this to turn many evangelical people into global-warming people. We are the stewards of the planet and so forth. There’s an ongoing effort here to corrupt Christianity.​

Citylink Gold
 

Hi Guys I am Erwin. I like this post and I respect this religion.
The reason why this is important is there’s an effort by the Left to say that Jesus was a socialist," said Limbaugh, "and they are using this to turn many evangelical people into global-warming people. We are the stewards of the planet and so forth. There’s an ongoing effort here to corrupt Christianity.​

Citylink Gold
Jesus was not a political person, although he had compassion for the poor, the widows, the orphans, the strangers (immigrants), as does his heavenly Father, and as did the disciples of Jesus.

Most of all, Jesus said that his disciples can not serve **both **God and mammon. One has to choose between serving God, or serving money.
 

Hi Guys I am Erwin. I like this post and I respect this religion.
The reason why this is important is there’s an effort by the Left to say that Jesus was a socialist," said Limbaugh, "and they are using this to turn many evangelical people into global-warming people. We are the stewards of the planet and so forth. There’s an ongoing effort here to corrupt Christianity.​

Citylink Gold
This has nothing to do with the thread topic. Feel free to start a new thread but don’t derail this one.
 
Zarthan,

I appreciate your reply to Erwin1230.

In this forum discussions should be about Scripture, not current politics.

We are all entitled to political views and have a right to discuss them,
but this is not the place.
 
Zarthan,

I appreciate your reply to Erwin1230.

In this forum discussions should be about Scripture, not current politics.

We are all entitled to political views and have a right to discuss them,
but this is not the place.
My sentiments, exactly. Thanks and God bless.
 
Many thanks for the quick replies (esp. Zarthan for that informative post). My reason for posting this question comes from the inclination for the Protestant reasoning that written scripture is holier than that from tradition (ie oral rendering). Another way to say that is that oral tradition can be easily transformed through time. My feeling is that during the time of Paul’s teaching, apparently orally as well as with the epistles, there was no New Testament. His reference then had to be the Septuagint, as another poster wrote. Yet, he must also include his own writings, yes? This, since his writing were inspired. It must also somehow reach forward in time and include the as-yet-not-written Scripture of the Bible as we now know it. But–and here is my real question–the word Scripture…does it or can it include oral teaching? or is this necessarily a separate term?
 
Many thanks for the quick replies (esp. Zarthan for that informative post). My reason for posting this question comes from the inclination for the Protestant reasoning that written scripture is holier than that from tradition (ie oral rendering). Another way to say that is that oral tradition can be easily transformed through time. My feeling is that during the time of Paul’s teaching, apparently orally as well as with the epistles, there was no New Testament. His reference then had to be the Septuagint, as another poster wrote. Yet, he must also include his own writings, yes? This, since his writing were inspired. It must also somehow reach forward in time and include the as-yet-not-written Scripture of the Bible as we now know it. But–and here is my real question–the word Scripture…does it or can it include oral teaching? or is this necessarily a separate term?
Just my opinion, but it would inclulde oral tradition, until such tradition was written. It is very likely, that the apostle Peter was not literate, at least not in Greek, and that he would need someone like Mark to write the teachings of Jesus that he (Peter) received. In fact, it is possible that even Clement, later Bishop, or Pope Clement of Rome may have assisted Peter with written communications in Greek.

When we read the writings of Ante-Nicene chuch fathers most of their writings refer to what was written, and that would be the scriptures that we now have in both the Old and New Testaments.

On occasion, they will relate an oral tradition that they may have received through a disciple of one of the apostles.
 
Just a quick addendum to my previous post. Oral tradition would also include church structure, discipline and liturgy. Something which is not spelled out in detail within in the N.T.

Thus, Protestants do not have the holy liturgy of the Eucharist, nor the church structure and discipline that is related in the Constitutions of the Apostles. Whether the Apostolic Constitutions originated with the apostles or not, we have some of the oldest documents regarding church structure, discipline, and liturgy within these seven volumes. These '‘apostolic constitutions’ most likely were addressed to bishops, presbyters, deacons and others in spiritual authority, thus they are not referred to in detail either in the N.T. or in the writings by the Ante-Nicene church fathers.
 
What is the best estimate for the dating of these Apostolic Constitutions?
 
What is the best estimate for the dating of these Apostolic Constitutions?
The scholars will say parts of it may be the second century, the consensus holds that they are from the third or fourth century. Internal reasons were already given to make a solid case for a much earlier date, at least for portions of the constitutions. One would have to be very clever to list the names of heretics up to 90 AD, the list of bishops up to 90 AD, quote more of the OT than the NT, and proscribe Jewish liturgies to a document in 300 AD, to make it look like it came from the 1st century.
 
One of the things that might be helpful for anyone, when reading the Ante-Nicene writings is to know that much of the writings of Ireneaus, Hippolytus, Tertullian and others is in regard to their refutation of the various heresies and heretics of their own day. If one reads these writings, one should have a good understanding of scripture, and be forwarned.

In the refutation of the various heresies, the lies of the heresies are set forth, and they can actually make one’s head spin. As a consequence, these defenders of the faith use the Word of God with great precision to cut through the clever lies of the enemy.

The “Constitutions of the Apostles” are not the refutation of heresies. Much of the seven books of the ‘Constitutions’ is holy teaching, and one must be prepared to humbly repent, and to humbly love God and one’s neighbor as one’s self. (which I must admit, I have failed all too often).

So let us be thankful together for every and all good gifts that our Heavenly Father has bestowed upon us through our Lord Jesus Christ. Knowing that we know in part, but when the perfect has come, than that which is imperfect shall be done away.
 
I’ve always thought that “sola scriptura” was pretty strange, given that, for Jesus, Paul, Peter and other Christians of the first century, the scriptures were the Hebrew bible (i.e., Old Testament).

For New Testament christianity, the basis for faith was the written scriptures (OT) + tradition (oral preaching, scriptural interpretation, scripture-based practices, etc.). Apparently, by the time of Luther and the other reformers, Christian faith needed a different basis than for Peter and Paul, namely the canon of scripture that came into being centuries later.
 

Hi Guys I am Erwin. I like this post and I respect this religion.
The reason why this is important is there’s an effort by the Left to say that Jesus was a socialist," said Limbaugh, "and they are using this to turn many evangelical people into global-warming people. We are the stewards of the planet and so forth. There’s an ongoing effort here to corrupt Christianity.​

Citylink Gold
Wow! Good thing the Right never tries to co-opt Christianity to its political ends.
 
When used in the New Testament, “Scripture” translates a word based on the Greek “graphein”, “to write”. Different translations into English might say “the Scriptures”, “Scripture has it”, “it is written” or “the writings”. I’ve never actually seen the last, but I personally think that that usage is how it would have struck a first century AD reader. Almost always these referred to a set of Hebrew holy books that had been translated into Greek in Alexandria around the third century BC, with some books considered holy that were available originally only in Greek.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a school of rabbis set up shop in Jamnia and around AD 90 to 110 settled on the determination that they would consider as the Jewish inspired writings only those books of the Torah and Tanakh that were originally written in Hebrew, and the Septuagint specifically was not inspired. This is because the Septuagint was very explicit in some prophecies that were more subject to interpretation in the Hebrew. A prime example is Isaiah 7, where “a virgin shall be with child” uses a compound word in Hebrew - young woman, with the usual meaning of “virgin” (like German “Jungfrau”) - whereas the Septuagint uses a specific Greek word that only means “virgin”. Also, the removal of the books of the Maccabees was satisfying to the Roman occupiers, who wanted no more holy references to Jewish uprisings. This determination of the Jewish scriptures prevails in much of Judaism to this day.

Christians continued to consider the Septuagint as inspired for the Old Testament, plus some writings of the apostles and first century evangelists which we now know as the New Testament. The mix of letters considered inspired for the New Testament varied somewhat in different places, and was fixed in 397 for the Christians of North Africa by a synod of bishops who published a definitive listing those books considered inspired in both the Old and New Testaments. St. Augustine in his On Christian Doctrine provides this listing, which we all recognize today as the Catholic Bible. It as much codifed prevailing practice as defined it, and throughout Rome and Western Christendom for the next 1100 years became accepted as the defined canon of Scripture.

Martin Luther, who resented the Maccabees’ insistence on prayers for the dead and implication of purgatory, and Tobias’ insistence on alms and good works, decided he would accept as definitive the judgement of the “council of Jamnia” mentioned above with regard to the Old Testament, even though there were no Christians present and the decision was motivated in large part by a desire to undermine the preaching of the Gospel. Accordingly, the ecumenical council of Trent defined the canon of Scripture formally. The books rejected by the reformers are those they call “apocrypha”. Luther wanted to reject Hebrews and James as well, but could not resist popular opinion.

It is worth noting, then, that the Bible (however defined) was considered inspired by God and its authority unquestioned because of common unquestioned usage over 1500 years. Its authority, mentioned above, is based on its authorship by God. We only know this, though, because it is part of God’s revelation preached by the Church (however defined).

It is worth noting, as well, that the phrase “the word of God”, when used in the New Testament not with reference to Jesus Christ, refers to “the gospel message” and not to the Scriptures per se. This is not to say that the Scriptures are not properly called “the word of God,” only that the New Testament doesn’t use it that way. In Acts 17, the Bereans “were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Obviously, they didn’t search the scriptures to find out if the scriptures were so. Apart from which, nobody really believes that St. Paul and the others went around handing out Bibles.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top