Homosexual Intercourse vs. Suicide

[cmudd]

A serious question for serious-minded people… Please refrain from any invectives or “hijacking” of this thread.

Given the inherently sterile nature of the homosexual act, could one legitimately argue that the homosexual act is more entropic than suicide?

We can state that the homosexual act - in a singular instance - necessarily frustrates our natural design to be prolific. Each act not only eliminates the singular transmission of one life, but it eliminates the possibility of any future generations that may have proceeded from that one act; had it been performed in its proper context.

Could one argue that because the homosexual act frustrates the very act meant to propagate the species it is, as a singular act, more entropic than suicide, given that suicide is devoid of any sexual context?

I have been pondering this question for some time and need some outside commentary as I have hit something of a wall: Suicide could be seen as the ultimate entropic act as it totally precludes any hope of further progeny, but the homosexual act thwarts the only natural means by which we may transmit life. The transmission of life, from a certain biological perspective, is the primary objective of every living organism.

Therefore, which is more disordered: purposely inhibiting one’s ability to effectively implement one’s primary animal objective or speeding up the inevitable?

Thanks for your help!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Given the inherently sterile nature of the homosexual act, could one legitimately argue that the homosexual act is more entropic than suicide?

Why would we want to argue that?

 

[cmudd]

Why would we want to argue that?

You may not wish to do so… please refer to the bold-faced intro.

 

[kristie_m]

An interesting topic, so I’ll offer my own perspective, which may or may not be in line with church teaching.

I would have to say that while both are considered mortal sins, suicide would be the greater of these as it removes the possibility of temporal redemption. In other words, while someone who engages in a homosexual act does in fact deny the potential for procreation, there is nothing stopping that person from later having heterosexual sex. Whereas, if you commit suicide (or kill someone else for that matter) there is no turning back.

I’m not sure if that answered your question properly…if not, I’m afraid I misunderstood what you were asking.

 

[cpayne]

Dear Kristie M: Exactly.

As a rabbi once said, suicide destroys the universe.

 

[Formosus]

The thing is though, if you make the argument that homosexual intercourse is as bad as sucide, then you have to make the argument that any sexual action that is not procreative is as bad as suicide.

As Kristie stated though, suicide takes away all chance for forgiveness, homosexual sex does not. Therefore they are not equal. Suicide is much worse then homosexual sex. In homosexual sex, you are preventing new life from entering into the world which is bad. But with suicide, you are actively taking away life that already exists and rejecting one of God’s greatest gifts.

 

[Starwynd]

Okay, now I’m confused, the only reason why homosexuality is wrong and a sin is simply because there’s no procreation of the human race? That’s it?

If so then doesn’t that mean that sex and marriage is only for procreation?

 

[BlaineTog]

Homosexual acts are mere sexual sins, which aren’t as big a deal as everyone makes them out to be. Suicide, on the other hand, kills someone. The two aren’t on the same level in any way except for both being mortal sins.

 

[AndyF]

kristie_m;

But if you recall that along with the OT command against homosexuality, God indicated it’s seriousness and stated it was an abomination. Suicide although very serious, isn’t.

Andy

 

[BlaineTog]

kristie_m;

But if you recall that along with the OT command against homosexuality, God indicated it’s seriousness and stated it was an abomination. Suicide although very serious, isn’t.

That doesn’t mean Suicide isn’t an abomination, and it certainly doesn’t mean homosexuality is worse. It could just mean the Bible found it necessary to point out that homosexuality is a no-no in this way whereas it didn’t feel that it was necessary to do so in the case of suicide.

 

[cpayne]

Okay, now I’m confused, the only reason why homosexuality is wrong and a sin is simply because there’s no procreation of the human race? That’s it?

If so then doesn’t that mean that sex and marriage is only for procreation?

Well, not exactly. It means that homosexual activities are not ordered in line with the intrinsic nature of sex. PART OF the intrinsic nature of sex is procreative. Sex and marriage are not “only for” procreation, but that seems to be the number one reason for their existence. Affection, companionship, human completion, etc., are also reasons—which, come to think of it, would also make casual sexual relationships immoral, even if those relationships were procreative in nature.

 

[davidv]

In addition to the comments regarding the potential for repentance, I offer the following.

Since both acts are gravely disordered and have the potential for keeping one out of heaven, any distintion is one with no practical difference.

 

[kristie_m]

kristie_m;

But if you recall that along with the OT command against homosexuality, God indicated it’s seriousness and stated it was an abomination. Suicide although very serious, isn’t.

Andy

Well, I don’t believe homosexuality is directly addressed in the ten commandments, either, but killing certainly is.

 

[mercygate]

Okay, now I’m confused, the only reason why homosexuality is wrong and a sin is simply because there’s no procreation of the human race? That’s it?

If so then doesn’t that mean that sex and marriage is only for procreation?

Sex and marriage are PRIMARILY for procreation and by extension the good of the couple and the building up of society for the Kingdom of God.

Homosexual sex, as a lifestyle is certainly socially suicidal. As is contraception.

 

[BlaineTog]

Sex and marriage are PRIMARILY for procreation and by extension the good of the couple and the building up of society for the Kingdom of God.

They’re actually for both reasons equally. At least, that’s what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[cmudd]

In addition to the comments regarding the potential for repentance, I offer the following.

Since both acts are gravely disordered and have the potential for keeping one out of heaven, any distintion is one with no practical difference.

**Perhaps I need to clarify my question a bit. The relevant issue is not so much about sin (specifically: one need not address it directly as sin). My question is one of the entropic qualities of each and whether one is more so than the other. Entropy is an entity’s (man, society, culture, etc.) gradual and natural progression toward disorder/death.

If one were to compare suicide with the homosexual act, could one draw a valid/compelling distinction between the entropic qualities of one vs. the other? Namely; because H.S. thwarts the present and future transmission of life, is it more entropic than suicide, a singular act which, in and of itself, precludes any further transmission of life?

The key distinction being that suicide simply hastens the inevitable (death) whereas H.S. as a singular act necessarily removes procreation as a potential from the act wherein that potential is the primary biological purpose; thus, denying possible progeny. Essentially, with H.S. you are killing the potentiality or possibility of future human beings who will now never exist.

In terms of keeping one out of Heaven, of course, there is no practical purpose in drawing a distinction. However, there is a practical purpose in discerning the gravity of any singular act. Certainly, anything that keeps us from our eternal reward is to be avoided, but this is a separate issue: valid, but separate.

This question may be more of an academic interest, but I think anything that gives us greater understanding of the effects of any activity is of inherent value. “We know things because God made them knowable.”

Thanks again for the interest! If we can keep the responses more about the entropic quality of each rather than which one will get you the Hell quicker, I would be greatly appreciative!**

 

[davidv]

**Perhaps I need to clarify my question a bit. The relevant issue is not so much about sin (specifically: one need not address it directly as sin). My question is one of the entropic qualities of each and whether one is more so than the other. Entropy is an entity’s (man, society, culture, etc.) gradual and natural progression toward disorder/death. **

I believe that in our human condition, any tendency toward disorder and death can be directly attributed to sin. So, I see the two inextricably connected. Given that Christ died for our sins, this entropy is not a forgone conclusion. There is an antidote, its called grace.

**If one were to compare suicide with the homosexual act, could one draw a valid/compelling distinction between the entropic qualities of one vs. the other? Namely; because H.S. thwarts the present and future transmission of life, is it more entropic than suicide, a singular act which, in and of itself, precludes any further transmission of life? **

The key distinction being that suicide simply hastens the inevitable (death) whereas H.S. as a singular act necessarily removes procreation as a potential from the act wherein that potential is the primary biological purpose; thus, denying possible progeny. Essentially, with H.S. you are killing the potentiality or possibility of future human beings who will now never exist.

In terms of keeping one out of Heaven, of course, there is no practical purpose in drawing a distinction. However, there is a practical purpose in discerning the gravity of any singular act. Certainly, anything that keeps us from our eternal reward is to be avoided, but this is a separate issue: valid, but separate.

I would submit that suicide is not a sigular act in regard to the potential for life. What if God’s plan for that individual include marriage and children (obviously not applicable to one past child rearing years). Would not this cut off a whole branch of a family tree? I see no different in the level of harm to the individual nor society.

What would the purpose be of drawing a distinction between two acts that have the same potential for harm?

This question may be more of an academic interest, but I think anything that gives us greater understanding of the effects of any activity is of inherent value. “We know things because God made them knowable.”

Thanks again for the interest! If we can keep the responses more about the entropic quality of each rather than which one will get you the Hell quicker, I would be greatly appreciative!

 

[vern_humphrey]

You may not wish to do so… please refer to the bold-faced intro.

But my question is crucial. I do not see how you can get an answer to the question posed by the thread until you can answer why we want to ask this question.

 

[Other_Eric]

**Perhaps I need to clarify my question a bit. The relevant issue is not so much about sin (specifically: one need not address it directly as sin). My question is one of the entropic qualities of each and whether one is more so than the other. Entropy is an entity’s (man, society, culture, etc.) gradual and natural progression toward disorder/death. **

**If one were to compare suicide with the homosexual act, could one draw a valid/compelling distinction between the entropic qualities of one vs. the other? Namely; because H.S. thwarts the present and future transmission of life, is it more entropic than suicide, a singular act which, in and of itself, precludes any further transmission of life? **

The key distinction being that suicide simply hastens the inevitable (death) whereas H.S. as a singular act necessarily removes procreation as a potential from the act wherein that potential is the primary biological purpose; thus, denying possible progeny. Essentially, with H.S. you are killing the potentiality or possibility of future human beings who will now never exist.

In terms of keeping one out of Heaven, of course, there is no practical purpose in drawing a distinction. However, there is a practical purpose in discerning the gravity of any singular act. Certainly, anything that keeps us from our eternal reward is to be avoided, but this is a separate issue: valid, but separate.

This question may be more of an academic interest, but I think anything that gives us greater understanding of the effects of any activity is of inherent value. “We know things because God made them knowable.”

Thanks again for the interest! If we can keep the responses more about the entropic quality of each rather than which one will get you the Hell quicker, I would be greatly appreciative!

In attempting to distinguish same-sex sexual activity with suicide, I believe your attempted distinction between the entropic qualities of each act and the sinful qualities is ill defined. Sin, by its very nature leads towards both disorder and death. Moreover, to equate disorder with death as the end result of a spontaneous change brought on by increased entropy is to compare apples and oranges. A disorder is a somewhat mutable state, a process; death is neither.

A serious discussion of the entropic qualities of the same-sex sexual act and the suicidal act must establish a common terminal state for each. Given your explanation, this would have to be death. We would have to go still further and define whether we were talking of corporeal death or spiritual death. I take it to mean you are interested in the latter since we are discussing the relative gravity of each act and such a measure only makes sense in terms of morals.

Further, let’s not confuse the issue by trying to say that the gravity of an act is distinct from its potential to lose an individual his salvation. Gravity is the measure of just such a thing and it does not do to deny it as a way of distancing oneself from the implications of one’s argument.

In comparing the two activities, I will assume for the purposes of this discussion that we are talking of successfully executed instances of each act. Thus we may avoid the hair splitting that would result, for instance, from the individual who had unsuccessfully attempted suicide.

It seems to me that if you are going to base your entropic analysis around the potential for each individual to produce progeny, then it seems you are still attempting to compare things that cannot be compared. A same-sex sexual act may, by its singular nature, deny the possibility of progeny but it cannot do so in absolute terms as suicide can.

Viewed purely in terms of entropy, the homosexual act must be of lesser gravity than the suicidal act. I hasten to add, however, that this is a poor method by which to assess the spiritual effects of any two activities.

 

[Other_Eric]

But my question is crucial. I do not see how you can get an answer to the question posed by the thread until you can answer why we want to ask this question.

The crucial nature of your question is suspect, I think. One does not ask one’s algebra teacher why it is that we must solve for X; we just do the formula to exercise our minds for future problems.