Homosexuality and the Church/ Bible

[servus]

About a year ago in a religion calss at school we were handed an article written by a Christian minister which explained why the Church should accept homosexuals whether in the laity or the clergy.Then I learned about the schism threatening to take place in the Anglican Church over the ordination of Bishop Gene Robinson. I was not aware of how big a problem, or issue homosexuality in the Church was. Now I have spent some time reading about the issue and found that the United Church of Christ fully supports glbt marriage. Also, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Professor Peter Gomes of Harvard, and many other influential voices support homosexuality.

It seems that people who are open and accepting of homosexuals whether Academic or Religious are confident speaking matter-of factly-about the Bible’s inclusive and approving stance of homosexuality. Perhaps I haven’t seen the “evidence” both scientific and theological which gave us this confidence.

I intend this Thread to be a discussion/ interpretation of Biblical passages relating to homosexuality to see if we can come to a Rational, hermeneutical (interpretation) concensus as to what they mean, and their application today.

We have Leviticus 18:22: “man shall not lie with man, it is an abomination”

Defenders of the practice of homosexuality have this one in the bag. All they have to say is “well you don’t obey most of the laws of Moses, you eat pork, you play football on saturday, etc”. Or else if they are an evangelical they can hide behind the “law was nailed to the cross” idea.

The story of Sodom and Gommorrah in Genesis. And the passages relating to the story in Jeremiah, Isaiah, and any apocryphal book.

The rational I have heard for this one is that “the sin of sodom was pride, idelness and fullness of bread” as isaiah says. Therefore they equivocate and pretent that that is all Sodom was guilty of.

Finally we have Romans 1:26-29, I Timothy and Jude.

The most forecfull and applicable statement on homosexuality, I think, is in Romans ch. 1 verses 26-29. In it un mistakeable but they have been able to jump through all kinds of hermeneutical hoops to get around this one.

I have never heard a biblical defense of homosexuality which did not either begin with, or include an attack on the Bible’s credibility. Most defenders of homosexuality usually open thier article or book with “proof the Bible was wrong”, or the assertion that the Bible was written for a pre-scientific age and can’t be appliled today. Then they go on to build their argument.

But they are shooting thier toes off because when they tell you this, then proceed to interpret verses like Romans 1:26-29, they have basically told you that they will misinterpret it to support thier position. If they believed what the passage says, they would not have opened thier article or speech by attacking the credibility of the Bible.Or if they were confident that the Bible supports them, they would not have attacked its credibility.

They are essentially saying, “the Bible can’t be trusted, so let me interpret it for you”. Or “the Bible is wrong, but just incase there are some out there who trust it let me twist it to support what I say”.

With all that said, I welcome all your comments. Personally, I am staunchly against all forms of deviant sexuality, and the recognition of it as normal or inevitable by people in the Church and in positions of authority. However I think that the poeple who hold up signs like: “God hates gays”, and “Aids is God’s curse”, “God hates Gene Robinson”, are in just as much trouble as the LGBT people themselves. I have a close friend who is a lesbian and she is one of the most caring people I have ever met. Violence both verbal and emotional have no place in the society we are capable of.

The Church and Society are fully capable of disapproving of homosexual behavior without hurting or discriminating against them.

 

[servus]

Note: I do not want us to approach these Scripture verses as if we already know what they say. We should not formulate our conclusion before the hypothesis and evidence. We should discuss the historical setting, transcultrual application, and rational basis of the texts. The only way we can make these Scriptures applicable today is to see if the Reason and Nature which Paul, Moses (or P) who wrote leviticus, and others appealed to could be appealed to today. God’s commandment suffices us, because we trust Him, but God does not command ridiculous or arbitrary things, so we can learn more about His commands by discussing them.

 

[Pete_1]

This is the Catholic church’s posisition (the official one) if it helps:
From here:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Here are the references

141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.
142 CDF, Persona humana 8.

 

[Elric]

Have a look at this site:
religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

It has some interesting thoughts on this topic.

 

[ozmatt]

IS HOMOSEXUALITY WRONG?

Let’s talk about SSA. I certainly don’t believe that people CHOOSE to be SSA. Studies have shown that it is derived from biological and environmental influences. If indeed biology contributes to homosexual identity, then homosexuality is innate, and designed by the Creator as an aspect of the person, and an aspect which he loves. In scripture it says: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you” (Jer 1:5) I believe God loves gays and made them that way.

Now, lets consider the acts in isolation. When the Church says “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” my interpretation says that physically and biologically the homosexual acts can be seen as incompatible with the way God designed us. However, this entire argument, including its supporting quotes like Leviticus, depends on the presumption that sex is solely ordered to procreation (ie. man + man ≠ baby, hence disordered.) I tend to disagree with such a view, and see sex as always wholesome and viable in the expression of ‘eros’ or ascending love, which seeks the presence of God through union with a person. The participants need to be in love with each other, and willing to declare that love in a life-long commitment.

So now the question becomes, “Is homosexual love real, and from God?” I refute the claim that homosexual love is impossible, and there is certainly nothing in the Bible which suggests explicitly that there is no love between SSA people. Sure sure, there’s Gen 1:27 “Man and woman he created them” but this doesn’t preclude the nature of same-sex love. Nothing in scripture says that SS-love is not of God.

I think the main problem here is that people need to read the Bible CONTEXTUALLY, not fundamentally. It is not the flawless expression of God’s thoughts and will, but influenced by the culture and author involved in its writing.

Homosexuality was frowned upon in the past, but we cannot use that as a basis to form our views on homosexuality into the future!

 

[fix]

Note: I do not want us to approach these Scripture verses as if we already know what they say. We should not formulate our conclusion before the hypothesis and evidence. We should discuss the historical setting, transcultrual application, and rational basis of the texts. The only way we can make these Scriptures applicable today is to see if the Reason and Nature which Paul, Moses (or P) who wrote leviticus, and others appealed to could be appealed to today. God’s commandment suffices us, because we trust Him, but God does not command ridiculous or arbitrary things, so we can learn more about His commands by discussing them.

You left out the most important principle. Authority.

 

[fix]

Homosexuality was frowned upon in the past, but we cannot use that as a basis to form our views on homosexuality into the future!

Why? Has moral truth changed?

 

[pjn6444]

Scripture is not the place to turn for the answers. The idea of homosexuality was much different in those times than it is now. For teahing on homosexuality as it is today, you should trust the church in its teaching. Or be like plenty of people and “decide on your own”.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Have a look at this site:
religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

It has some interesting thoughts on this topic.

Everyone please red the information on the Who we are pages and what they feel about morality. As said very interesting.

**

Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
Latest update: 2007-NON-18
Author: B.A. Robinson

**We are a multi-faith group. As of 2007-AUG, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters: belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists and what form it takes, etc…

… they also need to learn the shadow side of religion**: how religious beliefs have contributed to hatred, intolerance, unjustified discrimination, as well as: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifMass murders and genocides in such places as Nazi Germany, Bosnia, East Timor, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Sudan and countless other countries.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifHistorical support for human slavery, oppression of women, oppression of sexual minorities, etc.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifHistorical opposition to medical advances.

---

 

[Elric]

Everyone please red the information on the Who we are pages and what they feel about morality. As said very interesting.

---

Why is that interesting?

I dont understand the point you are trying to express.

 

[Brendan]

IS HOMOSEXUALITY WRONG?

Let’s talk about SSA. I certainly don’t believe that people CHOOSE to be SSA. Studies have shown that it is derived from biological and environmental influences. If indeed biology contributes to homosexual identity, then homosexuality is innate, and designed by the Creator as an aspect of the person, and an aspect which he loves.

Why does it follow that he loves that aspect? Does He love alcoholism in an alcoholic?

It is also most likely that an alcholic has a genetic predisposition towards their addiction, so they too do not choose to be an alcoholic.

Does that mean they should not work at remaining sober?

God gives us all crosses to bear, and we are called to bear them. Likewise with those who suffer from SSAD. They are called to be celibate in the same way the addict is called to be clean, or the alcoholic to be sober. It is their personal path to Sanctity, their personal cross to bear.

So yes, God loves the homosexual, and gives them Grace to bear it chastity.

In scripture it says: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you” (Jer 1:5) I believe God loves gays and made them that way.

God loves them yes, and gives them the Grace to bear their defects ( as He does for all of us)

Now, lets consider the acts in isolation. When the Church says “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” my interpretation says that physically and biologically the homosexual acts can be seen as incompatible with the way God designed us.

That is correct. Good, we have a basis for understanding here.

However, this entire argument, including its supporting quotes like Leviticus, depends on the presumption that sex is solely ordered to procreation

No God also created it to be Unitative, to be an Image of the Sacramental joining a man and a woman have in Marriage. This does not exist in Fornication of any type, even if that fornication is also procreative (such as in Adultery, or premarital sex)

(ie. man + man ≠ baby, hence disordered.) I tend to disagree with such a view, and see sex as always wholesome and viable in the expression of ‘eros’ or ascending love, which seeks the presence of God through union with a person. The participants need to be in love with each other, and willing to declare that love in a life-long commitment.

A Union that is only possible in the Insitution of Marriage, anything less is a sham, a fake.

So now the question becomes, “Is homosexual love real, and from God?” I refute the claim that homosexual love is impossible, and there is certainly nothing in the Bible which suggests explicitly that there is no love between SSA people.

Homosexuals are certainly capable of Love, Fraternal Love, Agape Love. But any attempt at true Eros Love outside of Marriage does not exist, it is only fake emotional response.

Read Pope Benedicts Encyclical on Love Deus Charitas Est (God is Love)

 

[Riley259]

IS HOMOSEXUALITY WRONG?

Let’s talk about SSA. I certainly don’t believe that people CHOOSE to be SSA. Studies have shown that it is derived from biological and environmental influences. If indeed biology contributes to homosexual identity, then homosexuality is innate, and designed by the Creator as an aspect of the person, and an aspect which he loves. In scripture it says: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you” (Jer 1:5) I believe God loves gays and made them that way.

Now, lets consider the acts in isolation. When the Church says “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” my interpretation says that physically and biologically the homosexual acts can be seen as incompatible with the way God designed us. However, this entire argument, including its supporting quotes like Leviticus, depends on the presumption that sex is solely ordered to procreation (ie. man + man ≠ baby, hence disordered.) I tend to disagree with such a view, and see sex as always wholesome and viable in the expression of ‘eros’ or ascending love, which seeks the presence of God through union with a person. The participants need to be in love with each other, and willing to declare that love in a life-long commitment.

So now the question becomes, “Is homosexual love real, and from God?” I refute the claim that homosexual love is impossible, and there is certainly nothing in the Bible which suggests explicitly that there is no love between SSA people. Sure sure, there’s Gen 1:27 “Man and woman he created them” but this doesn’t preclude the nature of same-sex love. Nothing in scripture says that SS-love is not of God.

I think the main problem here is that people need to read the Bible CONTEXTUALLY, not fundamentally. It is not the flawless expression of God’s thoughts and will, but influenced by the culture and author involved in its writing.

Homosexuality was frowned upon in the past, but we cannot use that as a basis to form our views on homosexuality into the future!

Homosexuality in and of itself is not wrong but it is intrinsically disordered. Homosexual acts are always wrong and inherently violate both natural and divine law.

 

[Riley259]

About a year ago in a religion calss at school we were handed an article written by a Christian minister which explained why the Church should accept homosexuals whether in the laity or the clergy.Then I learned about the schism threatening to take place in the Anglican Church over the ordination of Bishop Gene Robinson. I was not aware of how big a problem, or issue homosexuality in the Church was. Now I have spent some time reading about the issue and found that the United Church of Christ fully supports glbt marriage. Also, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Professor Peter Gomes of Harvard, and many other influential voices support homosexuality.

It seems that people who are open and accepting of homosexuals whether Academic or Religious are confident speaking matter-of factly-about the Bible’s inclusive and approving stance of homosexuality. Perhaps I haven’t seen the “evidence” both scientific and theological which gave us this confidence.

I intend this Thread to be a discussion/ interpretation of Biblical passages relating to homosexuality to see if we can come to a Rational, hermeneutical (interpretation) concensus as to what they mean, and their application today.

We have Leviticus 18:22: “man shall not lie with man, it is an abomination”

Defenders of the practice of homosexuality have this one in the bag. All they have to say is “well you don’t obey most of the laws of Moses, you eat pork, you play football on saturday, etc”. Or else if they are an evangelical they can hide behind the “law was nailed to the cross” idea.

The story of Sodom and Gommorrah in Genesis. And the passages relating to the story in Jeremiah, Isaiah, and any apocryphal book.

The rational I have heard for this one is that “the sin of sodom was pride, idelness and fullness of bread” as isaiah says. Therefore they equivocate and pretent that that is all Sodom was guilty of.

Finally we have Romans 1:26-29, I Timothy and Jude.

The most forecfull and applicable statement on homosexuality, I think, is in Romans ch. 1 verses 26-29. In it un mistakeable but they have been able to jump through all kinds of hermeneutical hoops to get around this one.

I have never heard a biblical defense of homosexuality which did not either begin with, or include an attack on the Bible’s credibility. Most defenders of homosexuality usually open thier article or book with “proof the Bible was wrong”, or the assertion that the Bible was written for a pre-scientific age and can’t be appliled today. Then they go on to build their argument.

But they are shooting thier toes off because when they tell you this, then proceed to interpret verses like Romans 1:26-29, they have basically told you that they will misinterpret it to support thier position. If they believed what the passage says, they would not have opened thier article or speech by attacking the credibility of the Bible.Or if they were confident that the Bible supports them, they would not have attacked its credibility.

They are essentially saying, “the Bible can’t be trusted, so let me interpret it for you”. Or “the Bible is wrong, but just incase there are some out there who trust it let me twist it to support what I say”.

With all that said, I welcome all your comments. Personally, I am staunchly against all forms of deviant sexuality, and the recognition of it as normal or inevitable by people in the Church and in positions of authority. However I think that the poeple who hold up signs like: “God hates gays”, and “Aids is God’s curse”, “God hates Gene Robinson”, are in just as much trouble as the LGBT people themselves. I have a close friend who is a lesbian and she is one of the most caring people I have ever met. Violence both verbal and emotional have no place in the society we are capable of.

The Church and Society are fully capable of disapproving of homosexual behavior without hurting or discriminating against them.

The best book that I’ve read on the subject is by Richard Gagnon and it’s entitled, Homosexuality and the Bible. With great clarity the book analyzes the relevant passages in the Bible and comes to the overwhelming and unmistakable conclusion that the commands in the Bible against homosexual acts were prohibitive under all circumstances and for all time…why? because it violates both divine and natural law.

 

[Elric]

The best book that I’ve read on the subject is by Richard Gagnon and it’s entitled, Homosexuality and the Bible. With great clarity the book analyzes the relevant passages in the Bible and comes to the overwhelming and unmistakable conclusion that the commands in the Bible against homosexual acts were prohibitive under all circumstances and for all time…why? because it violates both divine and natural law.

What relevent passages did the book analyze?

The ones that I have read, dont seem to be that clear either way (and I thought that they would would be clear in condemning homosexuality).

 

[ChristianWAB]

The original poster wrote of homosexuality as being but one form of “deviant sexuality” and I think that’s a key point to consider when speaking of the gay lifestyle.

Gays will often speak as if they are helpless slaves to their sexual preferences, yet this argument somehow never seems to fly when the deviant in question is fornicating with children, animals or watermelons.

So, why is it that pedophiles are inherently wrong and gays are totally justified in their actions? Is it a matter of consent? Because if it is, then you also have to address perceived injustices against those who engage in deviant sexual relations with consenting parties, yet still get condemned.

Everybody’s appalled at the FLDS sect, so couldn’t they also make the same argument? What about incestuous relationships that are entered into with mutual consent? What about the woman who goes after the married man and tempts him into committing adultery?

I’m a man who happens to be married to a WOMAN, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not occasionally tempted by other ladies. Yet, I’m no slave to my sexual urges. And when I was single, I wasn’t some ravenous, sex-crazed lunatic who couldn’t keep himself zipped up. I can keep sexual urges in check, yet according to the gay and lesbian community, that level of restraint is just plain unreasonable.

I’ve read all of the arguments against key biblical verses and none of them hold any water. The Bible so clearly condemns homosexual behavior that, outside of severe scripture-twisting, there’s really no argument.