Honest Protestant seeking answers on Sola Fide (Galatians)

  • Thread starter Thread starter reccanboy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don’t agree with the commentary because the Judaizers relied upon faith AND the works of the Law, not simply the works of the Law alone, just like Catholic soteriology would have us believe about the Jews living under the Old Covenant.
#1: The commentary I gave you does not say “alone” or “only.” That word, when used in the view of salvation, has only been used since the 16th century, beginning with Luther and Zwingli.

#2: Part of being Jewish is believing in the God that created the heavens and earth. If you did not believe in this, you were not considered a Jew. It’s kind of like saying Christians without faith. If you have no faith, you’re not really Christian. That is not the same, by the way, as a Christian who is losing their faith. Without faith in Christ, one is not a Christian, and without faith in God the Father, one cannot be a Jew. Therefore, it was understood that a fundamental belief in God was part of the salvation process.

In this respect you’re right in saying that the Jews would have had to live by faith in God the Father. However, the commentary does not dispute this and nowhere in the Bible or in Catholic teaching will you find anything that claims that Jews did not believe in God the Father.
 
being justified to do WHAT by faith alone? You have to look at the context. What good is faith if you dont live it or live by it? THIS is actually what was covered during the homily at mass this past sunday. St. James says in Chapter 2 verses 14 through 17: “WHAT GOOD IS IT, MY BROTHERS, IF SOMEONE SAYS HE HAS FAITH BUT DOES NOT HAVE WORKS? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM? IF A BROTHER OR SISTER HAS NOTHING TO WEAR AND HAS NO FOOD FOR THE DAY, AND ONE OF YOU SAYS TO THEM, {GO IN PEACE, KEEP WARM, AND EAT WELL} BUT YOU DO NOT GIVE THEM THE NECESSITIES OF THE BODY, WHAT GOOD IS IT? SO ALSO FAITH OF ITSELF (drum roll please, I love this part) IF IT DOES NOT HAVE WORKS, IS DEAD.” verse 18 continues, “INDEED SOMONE MAY SAY, YOU HAVE FAITH AND I HAVE WORKS, DEMONSTRATE YOUR FAITH TO ME WITHOUT WORKS AND I WILL DEMONSTRATE MY FAITH TO YOU FROM MY WORKS.” LOVE IT. Some people don’t like James. It’s ok, Martin Luther didn’t like him either & if he had his way James would be in an appendix @ the back of the bible. But for those who say, yeah, is that all you got is James? It gets reiterated again in TITUS. TITUS 3 8-11 “ADVICE TO TITUS: I WANT YOU TO INSIST ON THESE POINTS, THAT THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD BE CAREFUL TO DEVOTE THEMSELVES TO GOOD WORKS; THESE ARE EXCELLENT AND BENEFICIAL TO OTHERS. (I love this part) AVOID FOOLISH ARGUMENTS, GENEOLOGIES, RIVALRIES, AND QUARRELS ABOUT THE LAW, FOR THEY ARE FUTILE. AFTER A FIRST AND SECOND WARNING, BREAK OFF CONTACT WITH A HERETIC REALIZING THAT SUCH A PERSON IS PERVERTED AND SINFUL AND STANDS SELF-CONDEMNED.” Ladies & gentlemen, James & Titus!!!

Respectfully,

Jason

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Amen
 
#1: The commentary I gave you does not say “alone” or “only.” That word, when used in the view of salvation, has only been used since the 16th century, beginning with Luther and Zwingli.

#2: Part of being Jewish is believing in the God that created the heavens and earth. If you did not believe in this, you were not considered a Jew. It’s kind of like saying Christians without faith. If you have no faith, you’re not really Christian. That is not the same, by the way, as a Christian who is losing their faith. Without faith in Christ, one is not a Christian, and without faith in God the Father, one cannot be a Jew. Therefore, it was understood that a fundamental belief in God was part of the salvation process.

In this respect you’re right in saying that the Jews would have had to live by faith in God the Father. However, the commentary does not dispute this and nowhere in the Bible or in Catholic teaching will you find anything that claims that Jews did not believe in God the Father.
When I re-read my reply, I found out that due to the structure of my response, I might be misinterpreted. This is a more clear response from me:

I don’t agree with the commentary because the Judaizers relied upon faith AND the works of the Law, just like Catholic soteriology would have us believe about the Jews living under the Old Covenant.

Now, because of this, Paul has no basis for quoting Deuteronomy 27, in which he claims that the Jews could not be justified through obedience to the Law and faith in Christ.
 
so what about galatians? What is the question? Where’s the BEEF? LOL
 
THIS arguement. A classic. Justified by faith alone. I could bring up the book of james, I could even bring up the book of titus. I’m going to use my brain & not use scripture. I’ll use Abraham’s example. People say, Abraham’s faith is what saved his son & pleased God, etc. Abraham LIVED his faith. His WORKS of OBEYING GOD (which was an action & deed done in obedience) It was his FAITH that compelled him to obey, and the actions he carried out that pleased God. It was a DEMONSTRATION of obedience & faith, loyalty, etc. There you have it. I didnt have to leave the book of galatians. That was easy. next case!
 
When I re-read my reply, I found out that due to the structure of my response, I might be misinterpreted. This is a more clear response from me:

I don’t agree with the commentary because the Judaizers relied upon faith AND the works of the Law, just like Catholic soteriology would have us believe about the Jews living under the Old Covenant.

Now, because of this, Paul has no basis for quoting Deuteronomy 27, in which he claims that the Jews could not be justified through obedience to the Law and faith in Christ.
I will try to get to the heart of the answer you’re looking for so tell me if I’m on track with what you’re saying.

The Jews believed that you had to not only believe in God but also adhere to the laws that Moses gave them. Their adherence to strict Jewish Law is what kept them in favor with God, though many times there was no adherence to the law. Christians, on the other hand, rely on God Himself, who dwells within us, to turn our hearts and minds into something pleasing to God. Are we still on the same track?

If so, then here’s the rest of it. Because our good deeds come from God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us, it sets us apart from the Jews who relied on their own ability to adhere to Jewish Law.

St. Paul, in Galatians 3:10, references Deuteronomy 27:26 so as to make a comparison between the Jews of the Old Covenant, who relied on their own ability to follow the Laws of Moses, as opposed to the followers of the New Covenant who relied on Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts from evil to good. Remember, the very next verse of St. Paul’s letter states “Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live’” (Galatians 3:11). Keep in mind that even the Jews, who had no faith in their God, were not following the Law of Moses since that would be a violation of the first three Commandments. In that respect, St. Paul could have been clarifying for us that even the ones who called themselves Jews were not really Jewish if they did not believe in God, as that would violate the Commandments.

Christ dwells in us as we dwell in Him, since the body is for the Lord and the Lord for the body (1 Co. 6:13). That is the core idea of faith. The ones who called themselves Jews but did not believe, just followed the Law without faith, and that, as St. Paul reminds in in Gal. 3:11 is pointless, wheteher you are of the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. This is the reason why God became enraged with worthless sacrifices, as people just sacrificed to appease their own customs, not necessarily out of sorrowful regret for their sins.

One more thing to add to this, is that the Catholic Church for 2000 years has not taught any kind of a “works” salvation. The Church believes that it is not of our own doing but that of God that we become worthy of the promises of Christ. Having said that, we put into context the words of James who says “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (James 2:17). This applies to the Jews as well as the Gentiles, as God asks us to love Him just as He loves us. If we do that, we will abide in His will and the Holy Spirit will dwell in us.

If I understood your comment correctly, than this will help to clarify the Catholic position a little. I’m very happy to have this discussion with you and if I can help in any other way please don’t hesitate. I look forward to your response.
 
wait a minute…time out…paul has no basis? He’s an APOSTLE!!! Enough said.
 
I will try to get to the heart of the answer you’re looking for so tell me if I’m on track with what you’re saying.

The Jews believed that you had to not only believe in God but also adhere to the laws that Moses gave them. Their adherence to strict Jewish Law is what kept them in favor with God, though many times there was no adherence to the law. Christians, on the other hand, rely on God Himself, who dwells within us, to turn our hearts and minds into something pleasing to God. Are we still on the same track?

If so, then here’s the rest of it. Because our good deeds come from God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us, it sets us apart from the Jews who relied on their own ability to adhere to Jewish Law.

St. Paul, in Galatians 3:10, references Deuteronomy 27:26 so as to make a comparison between the Jews of the Old Covenant, who relied on their own ability to follow the Laws of Moses, as opposed to the followers of the New Covenant who relied on Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts from evil to good. Remember, the very next verse of St. Paul’s letter states “Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live’” (Galatians 3:11). Keep in mind that even the Jews, who had no faith in their God, were not following the Law of Moses since that would be a violation of the first three Commandments. In that respect, St. Paul could have been clarifying for us that even the ones who called themselves Jews were not really Jewish if they did not believe in God, as that would violate the Commandments.

Christ dwells in us as we dwell in Him, since the body is for the Lord and the Lord for the body (1 Co. 6:13). That is the core idea of faith. The ones who called themselves Jews but did not believe, just followed the Law without faith, and that, as St. Paul reminds in in Gal. 3:11 is pointless, wheteher you are of the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. This is the reason why God became enraged with worthless sacrifices, as people just sacrificed to appease their own customs, not necessarily out of sorrowful regret for their sins.

One more thing to add to this, is that the Catholic Church for 2000 years has not taught any kind of a “works” salvation. The Church believes that it is not of our own doing but that of God that we become worthy of the promises of Christ. Having said that, we put into context the words of James who says “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (James 2:17). This applies to the Jews as well as the Gentiles, as God asks us to love Him just as He loves us. If we do that, we will abide in His will and the Holy Spirit will dwell in us.

If I understood your comment correctly, than this will help to clarify the Catholic position a little. I’m very happy to have this discussion with you and if I can help in any other way please don’t hesitate. I look forward to your response.
It’s a historical fact that Judaism was a grace-based religion that relied on the Holy Spirit for good works. You should read “Paul and Palestinian Judaism” by E.P. Sanders, and “Paul: In Fresh Perspective” by N.T. Wright.

I think that your interpretation of Second Temple era Judaism is anachronistic.
 
It’s a historical fact that Judaism was a grace-based religion that relied on the Holy Spirit for good works. You should read “Paul and Palestinian Judaism” by E.P. Sanders, and “Paul: In Fresh Perspective” by N.T. Wright.

I think that your interpretation of Second Temple era Judaism is anachronistic.
I’m not sure why you’d say that. If we’re talking about Deuteronomy, which is what St. Paul is quoting, then we’re talking about 900 years before the second temple. The first temple was destroyed in 586 BC. How is my explanation anachronistic?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top