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Hesychios
Guest
So then, what you are saying is not that any human can be perfect, ‘perfect’ in this sense is a misnomer, it means the best possible example of being a human creature.
Which then ‘perfect’ would be theoretically possible for all, I suppose.
Is grace a created thing, or is it God Himself? I would like to see this clarified.
This is a false accusation on your part and a red herring.
I suppose that you are referring to hesychasm, otherwise you would have to make your point a little bit more precisely.It is a puzzle why you would think that people could not have authentic experiences of God and the communion of the saints.This attitude is not consistent with Holy Orthodoxy!
Messages from beyond are not generally trusted regardless of their content, this principle going back all the way to the desert fathers.
A brief example of thinking on the subject:
… If, however, by the command of God, one of the saints or angels wanted to appear to us in a material way, there is no transgression in this, for we didn’t desire this or seek after this. Yet, even in such cases, it is necessary for us to be very careful, humble, prudent and full of the fear of God, for knowing that Satan also assumes the guise of an angel, it may well be a fantasy of the Devil (2 Cor. 11:14-15). Of course, even when the vision is from God it is better for us not to receive it. For if we do this with humility God will not be sorrowful because He knows that we are taking heed not to accept within us the wolf instead of the shepherd. We don’t, indeed, have need of seeing the saints and angels, but only to pray with faith and internal vision. Saint Neilos the Ascetic says “Blessed is that intellect which arrives at the point of worshiping God without giving shape to His form within itself.”
Elder Cleopa of Romania
There are seven reasons that Christians are deceived into thinking that dreams and visions come from God. These are: pride; vainglory which is the first daughter of pride; a mind that is weak and dull in the faith; misplaced zeal of some Christians who purposely fast and pray specifically that they be granted visions…; then there is disobedience to the spiritual father and stubbornness on the part of some of the faithful…; because of the reclusive hidden life that some people lead and the failure to thoroughly confess all thoughts to the spiritual father; and the final reason that some Christians are deceived into believing in false dreams and visions is that they do not ‘know themselves’ and they fail to read the holy Scriptures and the holy fathers.
Elder Cleopa of Romania
An interesting comment from the renowned Carmelite, Saint John of the Cross:
It must be noted that all visions, revelations and feelings coming from Heaven, and any thoughts that may proceed from these, are of less worth than the least act of humility. And humility is one of the effects of charity, which esteems not its own things nor strives to attain them; nor thinks evil, save of itself; nor thinks any good thing of itself, but only of others. It is well, therefore, that these supernatural apprehensions should not attract men’s eyes, but that they should strive to forget them in order that they may be free.
The authentic ‘reputation’ of the Holy Theotokos rests upon good solid theology. The alleged communications are post-Apostolic revelations which have no real value. In fact the principle of supernatural massages was condemned by the church with the Montanists.
Of all the apparitions of saint Mary none can be considered authoritative, but they seem to have a grip on a faction of Latin Catholics who are as a result pushing new dogmatic pronouncements. This is disturbing. It is as if the pure Faith handed to us from Christ through the Apostles is being polluted. This tendency should be reined in by the church, not encouraged!
If we take fictional messages and start to believe them, we are projecting. We are making an image of the divine and the afterworld that comes from our own imaginations, not Truth.
) and wished to see the Virgin for the last time. They discovered an empty tomb. Church tradition relates that the Theotokos was resurrected bodily and taken to heaven, the same reward that awaits all the righteous on the Last Day.