Horrible experience assisting at Mass

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just_came_back said:
So I guess I will leave this site thanks to you 2. I guess the whole ecumenism that the Church teaches now is nothing to you to. I shake the dust off my feet in condemnation of you too. VAYA CON DIOS!!!

I will continue my Catholic walk with earnest and devotion. Nice board, except for attitudes like you 2. Peace friends!
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While we should all strive for unity among Christians, it is of no benefit to anyone to lie to those outside of the Catholic Church and misrepresent Official Catholic Church teaching in the process.

Do you know what the definition of heretic and schismatic is according to Church Canon 751? A heretic is someone who refuses to accept one or more Church teachings (as is the case with Protestants – if they accepted all Church teachings, then they wouldn’t be Protestants but Catholics). A schismatic is someone who refuses to submit to the authority of the Pope and the Catholic Church (as is the case with Protestants – if they did submit, then they wouldn’t be Protestants but Catholics).

Using this very site as supporting references, has the Catholic Church EVER taught that heretics and/or schismatics can be saved? I don’t see a single quote to support that but many quotes to support the exact opposite.
 
bmadamsberry said:
Thank you, ‘sir’, but I do know what Dogma is. I find it ironic, however, that your quotes don’t come from the Catholic Church, but are from a book (which, in some cases, quotes the Church). Why not quote the Church directly?

One can also read Unitatis Redintegratio, 3
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bmadamsberry said:
Dominus Iesus, the bane of liberal ecumenicalists, states:

The benefit is, of course, doing your own research as opposed to relying on a single book to do the work for you. So, we have the CCC, Lumen Gentium, Ad Gentes, Unitatis Redintegratio, and Dominus Iesus all going against you (and please actually read these, don’t just skim them. I don’t want to have to answer questions that are already answered in the quotes).
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From Catholic sources …

Ordinary Magisterium
  • Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)
  • Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)
  • Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
  • Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
  • Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)
  • Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
  • Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)
  • “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)
  • Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)
  • Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
  • Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation…Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
  • Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
… Continued in NEXT Post ***
 
*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post … Extraordinary Magisterium
  • Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”
  • Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
  • Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
  • In the current age of ecumenism and interreligious dialogue, the Church’s infallible dogma nulla salus has been all but ignored. We now often hear that the Catholic Church has only the “fullness” of truth as opposed to being the one and only ark of salvation. We even hear Catholics claim that the Protestant sects are eminently serviceable religions in their own right, instead of calling them what they really are: man-made institutions that are rife with heresy and immorality and which were created in opposition to the one true Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, the kingdom of God.
  • Pius IX condemned the notion that those outside the Catholic Church have a good hope of eternal life. Entertaining such an idea undermines the Church’s infallible teaching that outside of her there is no salvation. Such a false view results in a wellspring of indifferentism which has already infected the Church and the world today. Pius XI clarified that those who are invincibly ignorant of the Church may still be saved, but this is a narrow exception to the divine rule. How many are truly ignorant of the claims of Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church? Only God knows, and God alone is the Judge. Pius IX has told us that it is unlawful to proceed to further inquiry about the salvation of those outside the Church. Instead, we continue to labor in the harvest by planting the seed, and leave the growing to God.
I now respectfully bow out of this thread leaving those who disagree to address the above statements (many of which are infallible declarations) – recognizing that official declarations can never be changed.
 
Whew, okay.
What you are quoting is correct, there is no salvation outside the Church. What I quoted define and make clearer what it means to be inside the Church. It does not mean that one must be a member of the Catholic Church institution. As I quoted earlier, many Protestants are imperfectly connected to the Catholic Church, which is obvious by the fact that they have broken off from us.
The further one gets from the Church, the less and less their salvation is morally guaranteed. It is easier, for example, for an Orthodox Christian to “enter the Kingdom of Heaven” than for a Buddhist to “enter the Kingdom of Heaven”.
But to say that one must be enrolled in their local parish to go to Heaven, and if they aren’t they’re going to Hell, is to not be versed in the current Church documents regarding this.
Again, there is no salvation outside the Church is dogma. What this means, however, has been better understood throughout the Church’s history. This is the reason I gave more modern quotes, which help us to understand what the Church means.
 
bmadamsberry said:
Whew, okay.
What you are quoting is correct, there is no salvation outside the Church. What I quoted define and make clearer what it means to be inside the Church. It does not mean that one must be a member of the Catholic Church institution. As I quoted earlier, many Protestants are imperfectly connected to the Catholic Church, which is obvious by the fact that they have broken off from us.
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As Pope Gregory XVI declared in his Encyclical on August 15, 1832 … *A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”/i]

I never said that one must be enrolled in a local parish but that one must accept Catholic teaching. One last time before I depart this discussion. A heretic is someone who refuses to accept one or more Church teachings. A schismatic is someone who refuses to submit to the authority of the Pope and the Catholic Church. Per Church teaching, heretics and/or schismatics will not be saved.

EDITED TO ADD: Note the word “refuses” in my above statement – “refuses to accept …” and “refuses to submit …”*
 
Actually, I am not going to leave. All I can do is pray that my parents would someday become Catholic and if not, leave it up to the mercies of God. Believe me, growing up Protestant, I have seen the disdain for all things Catholic, not by my parents, but by others and that is what actually LED me to the Catholic faith. Always a rebel. HA!

I trust in God and rely on his mercy. The same God who foreordained His most holy church also knew the day that a schism would take place.
 
just_came_back said:
Actually, I am not going to leave. All I can do is pray that my parents would someday become Catholic and if not, leave it up to the mercies of God. Believe me, growing up Protestant, I have seen the disdain for all things Catholic, not by my parents, but by others and that is what actually LED me to the Catholic faith. Always a rebel. HA!

I trust in God and rely on his mercy. The same God who foreordained His most holy church also knew the day that a schism would take place.
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We must leave it up to the mercy of God for all of us. Your parents will see heaven I have every faith; as will all good people’s of the world. Jesus died for ALL. We are all Catholics, some of us just don’t know it yet; perhaps in Purgatory it will be made known to them.
 
VetA said:
PS i went to confession before Mass, and i confessed some bad sins that i had done, and i got 1 (i typed right) 1 our father as penance, thats ridiculous, thats the slightest penance i have ever gotten, does anyone have any ideas how to suggest to the priest (should i need to go to confession again) that i would like a harder penance?
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No offense or anything, but that made you sound very arrogant and full of yourself.
 
bmadamsberry said:
While we can’t be sure that your parents are going to Heaven (I don’t know what the state of their souls will be at the moment of their death), I can say that there are Protestants that will be in Heaven.

Catholic Answers has a discussion over salvation outside the Church here. To sum it up, being Catholic is the normative way of going to Heaven (similar to how baptism by water is the normative, but not only, way of being baptized).
In essance, those that have said things like “I wouldn’t count on that” are mistaken. Furthermore, the Church allows for the possibility for a nonChristian to be saved. So, shame on some of you.
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you cannot be non catholic in heaven, because (among other things) heaven is known as the Church Triumphant. now that being said, God cannot change, so saying that God can be anything other than Catholic would be gravely misguised. the way a protestant (or any other non Catholic Christians or non believers) can get into heaven is to repent (or in case of total ignorance, totally accept the Church) at their judgment. thus i am not saying that there are not former protestants in heaven, but i am saying there are no current protestants in heaven, because to state it differently, how can heaven be divided?
 
VetA said:
you cannot be non catholic in heaven, because (among other things) heaven is known as the Church Triumphant. now that being said, God cannot change, so saying that God can be anything other than Catholic would be gravely misguised. the way a protestant (or any other non Catholic Christians or non believers) can get into heaven is to repent (or in case of total ignorance, totally accept the Church) at their judgment. thus i am not saying that there are not former protestants in heaven, but i am saying there are no current protestants in heaven, because to state it differently, how can heaven be divided?
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I would have hoped that people would understand that when I said Protestants being in Heaven, they would assume that in Heaven we will all be Catholic… I guess not.
 
Love_Divine said:
No offense or anything, but that made you sound very arrogant and full of yourself.
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yeah it did:o, what i meant by it was, i usually go to confession once every 2 weeks unless i do something on the lines of a mortal sin, i am a sinner, and i sin every day (as we all do), but like i said if i do something bad enough i go more frequently than the once every two weeks.
 
bmadamsberry said:
I would have hoped that people would understand that when I said Protestants being in Heaven, they would assume that in Heaven we will all be Catholic… I guess not.
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i thought i knew what you were getting at just wanted to clear it up :). no offense meant lol
 
VetA said:
i thought i knew what you were getting at just wanted to clear it up :). no offense meant lol
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Sorry, I came off harsher than I meant to. I’m cooling down after getting yelled at by someone (not on the forums), and that anger boiled over into the forum. Again, sorry.
 
bmadamsberry said:
Sorry, I came off harsher than I meant to. I’m cooling down after getting yelled at by someone (not on the forums), and that anger boiled over into the forum. Again, sorry.
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its cool, iv done my share of venting here
 
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