How are we to know if 'religious' experiences are really religious?

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Notwithstanding that you are declaring yourself capable of discerning what Truth is…

I live south of where I work. When I drive home tonight I’ll start off by heading north to join the main road which takes me home. Am I heading in the wrong direction when I start off?

Someone may say that he has been told by God Himself to act in a particular way and you might think it’s wrong to do so. Is he lying about his revelation? Do you know what the final outcome will be? Do you assume that his actions will eventually lead him in the right direction?

I would respectfully suggest that you would have no idea at all.
Well, since you’re in the driver’s seat, why don’t we use the episode of your driving home and put you in a God-like position. Suppose you’ve got a very young child in the passenger seat.

He knows enough to realise that you seem to have started off in the wrong direction. He doesn’t know how to get where you want to go, but he does know that when you get home the sun is on the right hand of the car, but you’ve started off with the sun on the left hand side of the car.

So he asks you “Why are you heading this way?”

You reply, “To get home, I have to start driving in this direction, but later I’ll turn around by gradual means, and we will get to my house.”

And here is the nub.

“Trust me.”

Now the kid can either trust you or argue the whole way, until you pull up in the driveway. He might even tell you that you don’t know what the hell you’re doing, and if he had his way, he’d do it a lot better. Like Christopher Hitchens.

We’ll go to the next stage. You’re teaching someone how to drive, and you want to go, by a number of turns, cloverleafs, freeways, highways, and back alleys, from A to B.

Are you going to give the learner driver the details of the entire trip as soon as you sit in the car?

Or are you going to tell him one step at time? Turn here. Stop. Go left, and watch out for the speed bump. Pretty soon we’ll be on the freeway, and when we do move over to the right hand lane.

That’s how God works. He gives details one step at a time. I could tell you a couple of stories along that line, but that can wait for another time.

But we still don’t “know the mind of God”, in the sense we have no idea what he has planned for the rest of our lives, what He’s going to do next in history, when Christ is coming back etc. It’s just one step at a time, and it’s individual.
 
Well, since you’re in the driver’s seat, why don’t we use the episode of your driving home and put you in a God-like position. Suppose you’ve got a very young child in the passenger seat. He knows enough to realise that you seem to have started off in the wrong direction.
I think you’re misreading the analogy, Bob. The driver is not God but someone who says he has received instructions from God. The passenger is any person listening to the driver who says that they know which way to go.

There are, as I’m sure you’d agree, delusional people in the world. People who say that they are acting in such a way because they are listening to what God tells them. Whether they have mental problems or you want to think that they have been deceived by the devil, they are undoubtedly wrong. One of these guys says he has been told to head north and wait for further instructions.

There are others who you might say are really acting on God’s instructions. One of these guys also says he has also been told to head north and wait for further instructions.

You’re standing there, wanting to get home, listening to both of these guys and you have absolutely no idea which guy will get you there. In fact, maybe they’re both wrong. How do you actually know without hoping that one of them is right and travelling along with him?

That trip may take a lifetime before you realise you’ve made a mistake.
 
Might I suggest that you are in this moment having a religious experience.
The mystery is that it appears mundane.
 
I think you’re misreading the analogy, Bob. The driver is not God but someone who says he has received instructions from God. The passenger is any person listening to the driver who says that they know which way to go.

There are, as I’m sure you’d agree, delusional people in the world. People who say that they are acting in such a way because they are listening to what God tells them. Whether they have mental problems or you want to think that they have been deceived by the devil, they are undoubtedly wrong. One of these guys says he has been told to head north and wait for further instructions.

There are others who you might say are really acting on God’s instructions. One of these guys also says he has also been told to head north and wait for further instructions.

You’re standing there, wanting to get home, listening to both of these guys and you have absolutely no idea which guy will get you there. In fact, maybe they’re both wrong. How do you actually know without hoping that one of them is right and travelling along with him?

That trip may take a lifetime before you realise you’ve made a mistake.
I’ll give you a minor example from someone else’s personal experience. I’ve had a few of my own, but we won’t go there as I mention them too often. Although I’ve mentioned this one before as well.

I go to a Catholic psychiatrist a couple of times a year. It’s more of a chinwag these days, but I was on Prozac for depression for about 10 years. It helped, although I still get frustrated rather than depressed.

Anyway we both share certain spiritual experiences, which is helpful. If he was a purely secular psychiatrist, he’d probably try to tell me I imagined things, and then try to stick me on some more overpriced medication.

I was telling him about a “voice” which had spoken to me quite clearly on a couple of occasions, once when I was besotted with a young lady from the church I was going to, and the other time when I was moaning about my lack of “vocation” or, more realistically, career options.

On the first issue, and the local pastor had been trying to convince me to forget about the young lady, the voice simply cut right across my own cranky thoughts, and said, clear as a bell, “Bob!! Is (young lady) SUITED to you??”, with distinct emphasis on “suited”. In other words, forget it. But God, or more likely my guardian angel, was at least considerate enough to give the answer in leading question form, rather than jump straight down my throat.

On the second issue, vocation, the voice this time just cut clear across my own complaints and said, “Bob!! (first names note…), What’s WRONG with being a writer??”, with a distinct emphasis on “wrong”.

And they didn’t come from me. Once again God, or the guardian angel, didn’t jump down my throat, but merely posed a leading question right on the topic. Incidentally I’ve been dragging my feet on this one, mainly due to resentment. I wanted a trade.

So I told my psychiatrist about this, and he replied, “Well, that’s interesting. Did I tell you my story?” He hadn’t, so away he went. It seemed he’d been typing in his office, when a voice just out of the blue said “Go to Maclean!” And that was it - no context, no timing, no reason, nothing. Just “Go to Maclean!” He wasn’t even sure which Maclean it was referring to - Maclean in Northern New South Wales, North or South Maclean not far from where I live, or some other Maclean.

WIthout any further details, he just noted it. Now as a highly spiritual Catholic psychiatrist, and therefore in a pretty good position to know when something is spiritually or psychologically caused, he gets involved in “family healing masses” (read attached link on “healing the family tree” for a bit of background).

williamwilkie.com/spiritual.htm

About two weeks after the voice, he was in Lismore, NSW at a family healing mass. Afterwards an aboriginal woman came up to him and said, “I don’t want to make a nuisance of myself, or be a pest, or anything like that, but I seem to be getting told you should go to Maclean.”

Now if a strange woman came up to you, you’d probably want to know why you should go.

But he’d been primed by the voice in the office just two weeks before.

So he went. He ended up on some river island which was used as a temporary lockup for Aboriginal prisoners in the early days of settlement. He said there was some unfinished spiritual business (he’s also an honorary member of some aboriginal tribe, but he’s white).

Later however he said it seemed that the main purpose was to help the lady, as she had become Christian, and was getting a certain amount of harassment from her own people.

Now, as I pointed out in my previous post, God only gives us the next instruction. In the story I’ve just told you, all the psychiatrist was given was “Go to Maclean”. He had to wait for events to unfold to get the rest. And then he had to be obedient to the command. If he had refused, he would not have found out about the island “prison”, the unfinished spiritual business, or the the fact the lady needed his help.

And that’s how God works. Just one step at a time.
 
That’s some story, and I’m inclined to believe that it was indeed a religious experience!

My religious experience:

My mother always loved roses. On her first birthday after her death I was sitting in church and I got the idea to ask her to send me a rose if she was in Heaven. I quickly forgot all about it for 3 days. But on the third day while in church I remembered what I had asked for and looking up to Heaven I thought to myself how cheated I felt for not having received a rose. Then, something forced my head to look down and there was a rose right next to my foot. It was the most awesome experience! There were no other roses in the church that day except the one by my foot, right where I always sat.
Very neat story. Sounds legitimate to me.
 
So I told my psychiatrist about this, and he replied, “Well, that’s interesting. Did I tell you my story?”
If he had told you at the time that he’s been told to go somewhere, I’m going to assume that you’d have believed him. He seems a trustworthy sort of guy. You’d say – yes, this is genuine. God is talking to him and telling him what to do.

But what if he’d told you that he had been told in no uncertain terms that you both had to go. Something tells me that you wouldn’t throw up your job, leave the family and head north. But you believed him the first time – it was God talking, for heaven’s sake. Are you now going to disobey His command?

Yes you are. Because the only ‘revelations’ that seem real are either the ones that you experience yourself or ones that someone else has had that seem to have been confirmed in some way that convinces you they are real.

Not only do you have no way of knowing if someone really has had a chat with God, you actually have no way of knowing if you have yourself.
 
If he had told you at the time that he’s been told to go somewhere, I’m going to assume that you’d have believed him. He seems a trustworthy sort of guy. You’d say – yes, this is genuine. God is talking to him and telling him what to do.

But what if he’d told you that he had been told in no uncertain terms that you both had to go. Something tells me that you wouldn’t throw up your job, leave the family and head north. But you believed him the first time – it was God talking, for heaven’s sake. Are you now going to disobey His command?

Yes you are. Because the only ‘revelations’ that seem real are either the ones that you experience yourself or ones that someone else has had that seem to have been confirmed in some way that convinces you they are real.

Not only do you have no way of knowing if someone really has had a chat with God, you actually have no way of knowing if you have yourself.
Like I said earlier, you have to make a choice. You either believe you had a chat with God, or you don’t. And rest assured the devil is quite active in this area as well. It can be quite a challenge to work it out at times.

As far as confirming the source of someone else’s chat, that applies to anybody. You could tell me you had a talk with President Obama on the White House hotline this morning, and I’d have no way of confirming if you did or not, other than asking the President himself, you know, “Hello there, Mr. President, Bob Crowley from Australia calling. Just ringing to confirm you had a chat with Mr. Bradski this morning on the phone?”

“Hmm, Bradski, eh? Polish is he?”

In the end, you have to take someone’s word for the fact they had a “chat”. Then it’s up to you whether you accept the source of their “chat”, God, the devil, or themselves, or nobody if they’re just making it up.

You’ve got to draw the line somewhere.

The voices I experienced didn’t come from me, I can assure you of that. In both cases, they told me something I didn’t particularly watn to hear, and they cut across my thoughts.

And I know the psychiatrist well enough to know if he’s telling the truth or not.

We’ve both experienced supernatural “voices”, which addressed quite specific items. I was already moaning about my two topics, when the voices hit. His experience came completely out of the blue, and he had to wait two weeks for clarity, as events unfolded. Which means the source of his voice also knew what was going to happen in two weeks time - he was going to meet this aboriginal woman after the family healing mass.
 
As far as confirming the source of someone else’s chat, that applies to anybody. You could tell me you had a talk with President Obama on the White House hotline this morning, and I’d have no way of confirming if you did or not…
I think we’ve reached agreement.
 
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