How can a Christian/*non-Catholic* have a faitht that only relies on the Bible?

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholic1seeks
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Who decided what books should be in the Bible?
GOD did plain and simple. That’s why the Catechism of the RCC states that the Holy Spirit gave them the books. The RCC didn’t choose books.
Click on the link below at least one Christian community once saw those books as inspired, who decided they were wrong?
I don’t need the link as I’m well aware of these writings. But here is a question back to you. The infancy Gospel of James was declared to be invalid by the early church. Now many arguments made by the RCC regarding Mary reference that very Gospel. Did the Holy Spirit change his mind?🤷

As far as who decided that other early Christian writings were wrong, again that would be the Holy Spirit and is in line with the claim that the RCC makes herself in the Catechism.

PEACE
 
Are you kidding me with this post? Where do you get your information from? The back of a cereal box? Go read about Catholic history and theology from a scholarly author, please.
Why can’t people give an intelligent, Bible-based answer to honest questions being asked here? Catholic History is simply an anachronistic activist product of the Roman Church; it is not necessarily reliable in terms of being “proven” historical fact. Too often; heretics and apostates are so busy dismantling the Bible’s authority, when in fact; the Bible is the true Christians authority
 
Why can’t people give an intelligent, Bible-based answer to honest questions being asked here? Catholic History is simply an anachronistic activist product of the Roman Church; it is not necessarily reliable in terms of being “proven” historical fact. Too often; heretics and apostates are so busy dismantling the Bible’s authority, when in fact; the Bible is the true Christians authority
And where is this in the Bible? What was the true Christians’ authority before any of the books were written? Before they were all compiled?

Besides, if I wrote my own own book and claimed it to be holy and inspired, it wouldn’t mean that it would be. Look at the Qu’ran and Book of Mormon.

And could you tell me, of all the “denominations” out there, why can’t they agree?
  • The Lutheran Church believes in baptismal regeneration, the Baptist church does not.- The Assembly of God denomination uses instrumental music during worship, the Church of Christ denomination believes instrumental music to be unbiblical.- Presbyterians believe in unconditional atonement and irresistible grace, Methodists reject the two beliefs.- The Lutheran church believes that worship should be liturgical, the Assembly of God church does not.- The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism should be administered by complete immersion only, Presbyterians believe pouring is acceptable.- Methodists believe in the Trinity, Oneness Pentecostals do not.- Lutherans affirms the fact that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life, Baptists reject this belief and say that Mary had other children.- The Church of Christ denomination believes that baptism is necessary for salvation, the Baptist Church does not.- The Methodist church accepts female ministers, the Baptist church reject female ministers as unbiblical.- Episcopalians baptize infants, Pentecostals believe infant baptism to be invalid.- The Baptist Church teaches that once a person is saved, he is always saved and can not fall from grace. The Church of Christ rejects this teaching as unscriptural.
So, WHO exactly is right and how do you know?!?

The “reformers” of the various Protestants movements met up and couldn’t agree:

chnetwork.org/journals/authority/authority_4.htm

I’d be inclined to believe the Church which existed since the first century which compiled, preserved and canonized the books of the Bible would know more about its contents and meaning than some outside rebels.

I might meet your parents and your family and even read a book about them but am I better judge of who your family is and what they are like than you are, a member of your family?

Basically, Protestant theologies are all based on personal interpretations on the Bible, which the Catholic Church produced.

As Vincent of Lerins stated:

“Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . . Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning” (The Notebooks [A.D. 434]).
 
The Bible as you all know was formed about 350 years after Jesus.
Not true. Much of the Bible existed before Jesus (i.e., before the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity). All the rest of it was written by the early second century at the latest.

This confusion between the Bible and the canon really hinders Catholic apologetics. It’s a bogus argument that any Protestant should be able to see through, and it weakens what is in fact a pretty strong case.
The Bible is a form of Sacred Tradition,
I would agree, since I define “Sacred Tradition” as “the deposit of the faith.” However, Vatican II’s Dei Verbum seems to be defining Tradition differently, as one means by which that deposit is transmitted to us.
for what is in it was originally taught orally.
Probably most of it was. Not necessarily all of it, but I won’t quibble.
Now Catholics believe Sacred Tradition is also the Word of God.
But if the Bible is a form of Tradition, then the word “also” makes no sense. The question between Protestants and Catholics is whether all of Sacred Tradition was written down in the Bible (which Protestants affirm and some Catholics deny), or whether the historic teaching of the Church is also a divinely authorized and protected means by which the Word of God is delivered to us (which Catholics affirm and some Protestants deny). I have worded it this way to show that the basic affirmations on each side have an area of potential overlap, which is where my own position would fall. (All of the revealed Word of God is found in Scripture, but the “oral” teaching of the Church–i.e., what the Church has solemnly and continuously affirmed to be true and celebrated in the Liturgy–also embodies the Word of God. However, I disagree with the Roman Communion with regard to just how this “oral tradition” should be defined and interpreted.)

Paul illustrated what tradition is: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed” (1 Cor. 15:3,11). The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

But obviously if Paul’s definition of the Tradition is the one we are following, then Protestants have no problem accepting Tradition. The problem is not whether the teaching is passed down orally or in writing. The problem is with teaching for which we do not find sufficient basis in Scripture (or in other records of the very early Church, such as they are), but which we are asked to accept as dogmatic truth on the authority of the Magisterium or of longstanding (but not truly primitive) tradition. One example would be the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (particularly in partu). I don’t know if this tradition is correct or not. It’s quite ancient–maybe as old as the second century, but not apparently universally accepted until the fourth–but there’s no clear evidence that it dates back to the time of the Apostles, and it is theologically problematic in certain ways (particularly, as I said, the in partu aspect, which seems docetistic). (I am not making an exegetical argument against it, so don’t bother with those defenses.) I am willing to treat it with respect, but I have trouble accepting that it’s a necessary part of the Faith. This is where “sola scriptura” becomes relevant. The PV is not found in Scripture, and thus by Protestant/Anglican standards cannot be more than a respected pious tradition.

Edwin
 
Why can’t people give an intelligent, Bible-based answer to honest questions being asked here? Catholic History is simply an anachronistic activist product of the Roman Church; it is not necessarily reliable in terms of being “proven” historical fact.
The Roman Church that you disparage was instrumental in putting the Bible together in the first place.

In other words, anyone who owns a Bible today has inadvertently allowed a third party, i.e. Catholic Church, to come between them and God.

Also, I expect people who come to this website to have respect for Catholicism. They can hate it and dispute it, etc. But do not blatantly disparage the Church with stereotypical comments indicative of **mindless brainwashing **with no substantiation whatsoever.

It is a matter of respect. Know where you are and who you are communicating with.
Too often; heretics and apostates are so busy dismantling the Bible’s authority, when in fact; the Bible is the true Christians authority
Where does it say that in the Bible? Chapter and verse, please?

Is your statement a “tradition of men,” then?

See bold-type comments above.
 
I think the real question here is not how a Christian/non-Catholic have a faith that relies only on the Bible, but rather, how you can have a faith based on anything else. We as Christians believe that the Bible is the ultimate source of truth. Catholics chose to base their beliefs on sources other than the Bible (i.e.-the Papacy). The Bible does not say anything more about Peter’s founding of the Church other than he is to found it. It does not say that anyone has to continue it as a supreme leader. That is Catholic addition to dogma. That is not based on the Bible. You as Catholics will at least admit that everything you do is rooted in the Bible in some way. That does not mean that you live up to this idea, because much of what you teach has absolutely no root in the Bible (i.e.-Purgatory). Catholics have strayed from the Bible too much.
 
Actually, Christians believe that Christ is the ultimate source of Truth, as He Himself said (John 14:6). Christ transmitted Truth to the Apostles, who then commended the teaching they had received to writing–what we now call the New Testament–and also passed their teaching through oral tradition, from believer to believer, as the writings of the Apostles repeatedly testify (2 Tim. 2:2, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6).

It is only through this oral tradition that we even know who wrote much of the New Testament. The Gospels, Hebrews, Acts, etc., do not self-identify their authors. We know from history that around the same time, there were literally dozens of false or inaccurate “gospels” in circulation, such as the Infancy Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, and so forth. The way the early Christians distinguished false Scripture from Apostolic Scripture was through the oral traditions and doctrines they had received in continuous succession from the original Apostles and disciples.

Even so, there were great debates about which of the ancient books should be considered inspired Scripture that could be read in the churches. For example, in the East, Revelation took a very long time to reach general acceptance, while the same was true of Hebrews in the West. The first list of exactly the 27 books we now have in our New Testament dates to 367 A.D., in the festal epistle of Athanasius.

You can see, then, that Jesus from the beginning established a faith that was not based ultimately or exclusively on a book, but rather on the organic, living experience of the believers, in written and unwritten form. The Bible is the product of this living and pure faith, not the source of it.

You can see this for yourself, but to help you, let me ask a question:

Why is the Gospel of Mark to be considered Scripture? Why should we even call it the Gospel of Mark?

It doesn’t self-identify as Scripture.

No other book in Scripture directly refers to or quotes from the Gospel of Mark.

The author of the Gospel does not identify himself.

Extrabiblical tradition tells us that Mark was not one of the Twelve, but rather a companion of Peter. Mark, according to the tradition, wrote the Gospel based on what Peter recounted of Jesus’ life. This is backed up by the contents of Mark; for example, Mark 9 reveals the details of the Transfiguration of Christ, but as we know, only Peter, James, and John were with the Lord at the time, and presumably none of them wrote the Gospel of Mark.

So, on what authority should you Protestants consider the Gospel of Mark to be Scripture, while confessing that the Gospel of Thomas is not? Remember, if the Bible is the only ultimate and flawless authority, you must prove this from the Bible alone.
 
I think the real question here is not how a Christian/non-Catholic have a faith that relies only on the Bible, but rather, how you can have a faith based on anything else. We as Christians believe that the Bible is the ultimate source of truth. Catholics chose to base their beliefs on sources other than the Bible (i.e.-the Papacy).
It’s not that simple.
The Bible does not say anything more about Peter’s founding of the Church other than he is to found it. It does not say that anyone has to continue it as a supreme leader.
It doesn’t say anything either way. It is reasonable to conclude that principles mentioned on several occasions in Scripture (such as apostolic authority, with Peter apparently having a special kind of apostolic authority in some passages) are of continuing relevance to the Church. The decision to see these passages as relevant only for the first century is an interpretive decision, as is the decision to see them as having a continuing relevance. The one needs justification just as much as the other. If anything, it is the decision to limit the relevance of inspired Scripture that needs to be justified.
That is Catholic addition to dogma. That is not based on the Bible. You as Catholics will at least admit that everything you do is rooted in the Bible in some way. That does not mean that you live up to this idea, because much of what you teach has absolutely no root in the Bible (i.e.-Purgatory).
Again, this simply isn’t true. I think that the Biblical passages on which the doctrine of purgatory rests are too vague to support a dogma–and I further rest my case on the fact that all three Eastern Christian communions reject the dogma of purgatory as defined in the Roman Communion (while maintaining the value of prayer for the dead and often teaching that the post-mortem state is a bit less fixed than Western Christians assume). But there are passages which can be interpreted as pointing toward some kind of post-mortem purgation, and Christians have held this view since at least the third century, I believe.

Edwin
 
I think the real question here is not how a Christian/non-Catholic have a faith that relies only on the Bible, but rather, how you can have a faith based on anything else. We as Christians believe that the Bible is the ultimate source of truth. Catholics chose to base their beliefs on sources other than the Bible (i.e.-the Papacy). The Bible does not say anything more about Peter’s founding of the Church other than he is to found it. It does not say that anyone has to continue it as a supreme leader. That is Catholic addition to dogma. That is not based on the Bible. You as Catholics will at least admit that everything you do is rooted in the Bible in some way. That does not mean that you live up to this idea, because much of what you teach has absolutely no root in the Bible (i.e.-Purgatory). Catholics have strayed from the Bible too much.
Belief in the Bible as the ultimate source of truth is an extrabiblical belief. Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say it is the **final **authority. So how come you believe it?

Also, the mere fact that you have a Bible is evidence of you accepting authority emanating from outside the pages of Scripture. How do you reconcile that?

Was it the Holy Spirit that helped decide the books of the New Testament. If so, wasn’t that an extrabiblical event? (You will have to now admit that you believe in something NOT ROOTED in Scripture, i.e. the canon of the New Testament.) If the Holy Spirit revealed an extrabiblical event like the canon of the New Testament, why couldn’t He continue to act in like manner over the course of history?

BTW, Purgatory is mentioned in my Bible, a Bible first put together in the fourth century.
 
BTW, Purgatory is mentioned in my Bible, a Bible first put together in the fourth century.
Why this fixation on the point when the canon was firmly decided? The Bible can function perfectly well even if there are some disputes around the edges of the canon. In fact, debates about the precise status of the deuterocanonical OT books seem to have continued throughout the Middle Ages.

Edwin
 
Why this fixation on the point when the canon was firmly decided…In fact, debates about the precise status of the deuterocanonical OT books seem to have continued throughout the Middle Ages.
Do you regard the deuterocanoncials as being on par with the rest of Scripture?

If not, how do you reconcile the fact that these books were listed as being Scripture as early as the fourth century. And that Martin Luther’s first translation included them, as well as the earliest translations of the King James Bible?

This debunks the notion that Catholics “added” books to the Bible at the Council of Trent in 1546. It anything, these books were “removed” from Scripture.

And yes, some people disputed the deuteros, but people also disputed the nature of Christ’s divinity, etc. Did that mean that the Church had to rethink its position on the nature of Christ’s divinity? No, in fact, it was the catalyst for the Church to infallibly decree the trinitarian nature of Christ in the fourth century.

Ultimately, most people yielded to the authority of the Church to decide on the issue of the canon. For those you didn’t yield, by whose authority made them decide that the deuteros were not Scripture?

Was it the Holy Spirit? The same Spirit that is nowadays regulated to only helping people “comprehend” the meaning of Scripture? (A contradiction unto itself.) If Scripture was meant to be the final authority on all religious matters, then why did it take so long for the Holy Spirit to shed light on this issue?
The Bible can function perfectly well even if there are some disputes around the edges of the canon.
How is that so if a lot people have Bibles with 7 less books in the Old Testament and adhere to the concept of Sola Scriptura???
 
Do you regard the deuterocanoncials as being on par with the rest of Scripture?
No.
If not, how do you reconcile the fact that these books were listed as being Scripture as early as the fourth century.
Earlier. But their status was debated. Jerome questioned it, for instance, and these questions persisted right up to the Reformation.
And that Martin Luther’s first translation included them, as well as the earliest translations of the King James Bible?
The question for me is not whether they should be included, but whether they are on the same level as the rest of Scripture. Removing them outright (as some of the Reformed churches did, unfortunately followed by most modern Protestants) was an act of great arrogance.
And yes, some people disputed the deuteros, but people also disputed the nature of Christ’s divinity, etc. Did that mean that the Church had to rethink its position on the nature of Christ’s divinity? No, in fact, it was the catalyst for the Church to infallibly decree the trinitarian nature of Christ in the fourth century.
Right. But the status of the deuteros was not firmly resolved in Catholicism until the Council of Trent. I do not accept the Council of Trent as a valid and binding Ecumenical Council.
For those you didn’t yield, by whose authority made them decide that the deuteros were not Scripture?
You don’t need authority for a negative. You need authority to make a claim about matters of faith, not to reserve judgment with regard to that claim.
If Scripture was meant to be the final authority on all religious matters, then why did it take so long for the Holy Spirit to shed light on this issue?
Because it is not a matter of huge importance. You don’t need an undisputed canon for Scripture to function authoritatively. You just need at least some books that are unquestionably canonical. And we’ve had those ever since the time of Jesus (the Torah, for starters, but Jesus unquestionably accepted the Prophets and the Psalms as well, and seems to have counted Daniel as a prophet).
How is that so if a lot people have Bibles with 7 less books in the Old Testament and adhere to the concept of Sola Scriptura???
The only theological issue for which the deuterocanonicals are really important is prayer for the dead, which I do not consider to be an issue of major importance (I’m in favor of it, by the way). Some Protestants argue that the deuterocanonicals promote “salvation by works,” but they don’t do so any more than many other parts of Scripture (both OT and NT). It’s just that Protestants have learned to ignore or explain away those aspects of the undisputed Scriptural books. In other words, not much stands or falls on this question. Unless, that is, you think that the purpose of the Christian religion is to give us absolute certainty. I think that is a completely untenable position. If I thought that was the purpose of Christianity, I’d stop being Christian immediately, because Christianity clearly does no such thing.

Edwin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top