How can a dead person commit a sin that LEADS to death?

[WesleyF]

I have often been told by those who believe in Once Saved Always Saved, that in 1 John 5:16, it is not the believer who is spoken of, but “brother” actually refers to somebody who may seem to be a believer, but is actually unsaved. This question is for those who hold this belief.

The verse says -

“There is a sin that LEADS to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1 John 5:16)

Simple question - How can a dead person commit a sin that LEADS to death?

If a person is unsaved, then he is already dead in trespasses (Eph 2:1). A dead person cannot commit a sin that leads to death, because he is already dead. Therefore, this verse ought to refer to believers - those who are alive.

 

[Regina_Love]

yep!

 

[DavidFilmer]

“There is a sin that LEADS to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1 John 5:16)

Simple question - How can a dead person commit a sin that LEADS to death?

That is a VERY GOOD question. I have often used this passage in support of the distinction between mortal and venial sin (duh!), but I had never thought of it in relation to OSAS.

Good one!

 

[Gorgias]

The verse says -

“There is a sin that LEADS to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1 John 5:16)

Simple question - How can a dead person commit a sin that LEADS to death?

If a person is unsaved, then he is already dead in trespasses (Eph 2:1). A dead person cannot commit a sin that leads to death, because he is already dead. Therefore, this verse ought to refer to believers - those who are alive.

Interesting question!

Don’t get too caught up in the English translation, though! The original Greek says “ἔστιν ἁμαρτία πρὸς θάνατον” – that is, ‘there is sin unto death’ (the Latin translation here is “Est peccatum ad mortem”). The notion of sin that “leads to” death seems to have been inserted as part of the English translation. I think that, if I believed in OSAS, and I was confronted by your question, I would respond “John isn’t telling us that sin kills the believer; he’s just identifying that there exists sin that condemns, and that this sin cannot be wiped away by third-party prayer.”

I’m not saying that I think that’s a valid exegesis; just that this is what the response that you might receive, might be…

 

[WesleyF]

I’m not saying that I think that’s a valid exegesis; just that this is what the response that you might receive, might be…

I now have a guy telling me that this verse refers to physical death and not spiritual death.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I now have a guy telling me that this verse refers to physical death and not spiritual death.

Infants die. Is their physical death due to their own sin?

 

[ruiomichlet]

I have often used this passage in support of the distinction between mortal and venial sin

 

[steve_b]

I have often been told by those who believe in Once Saved Always Saved, that in 1 John 5:16, it is not the believer who is spoken of, but “brother” actually refers to somebody who may seem to be a believer, but is actually unsaved. This question is for those who hold this belief.

The verse says -

“There is a sin that LEADS to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.” (1 John 5:16)

Simple question - How can a dead person commit a sin that LEADS to death?

If a person is unsaved, then he is already dead in trespasses (Eph 2:1). A dead person cannot commit a sin that leads to death, because he is already dead. Therefore, this verse ought to refer to believers - those who are alive.

Everyone dies, so for John to make such a distinction, between sin that leads to death and one that doesn’t, “death” doesn’t mean death of the body. It refers to the soul. And since the soul is immortal, and lives forever, the question is WHERE will that be? Death in this case means supernatural grace in the individual soul, that is effected by certain sin…i.e. supernatural love of God. As John says, some sins one can pray about for forgiveness and it’s done, yet other’s he doesn’t recommend that option. So what’s John talking about some sins cause “death/mortal” ? What kills sanctifying grace such that without supernatural grace (sanctifying grace), in the soul, one won’t enter heaven. They go to hell instead.

Paul lists such deadly sins (based on consequences)

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

People walking around in these sins, are dead in sanctifying grace in their souls. If they were to die, they would have continued in these sins till their bodily death. They would not inherit heaven. “Death” in that sense would be hell for their soul. At the end of the world, they would be in hell body + soul

We know priests can forgive such sins [Jn 20:22-23] so there is no need to walk around in those sins or die in those sins

 

[WesleyF]

Infants die. Is their physical death due to their own sin?

A sin can lead to physical death, but that does not mean that physical death is necessarily caused by sin.

I know of one sin that may lead to physical death - receiving the Eucharist without discerning it (1 Cor 11:29-30).

 

[DavidFilmer]

I know of one sin that may lead to physical death - receiving the Eucharist without discerning it (1 Cor 11:29-30).

But you and I both know that folks have been doing this for centuries (regardless of what meaning one might ascribe to the phrase, “without discerning the Body of the Lord”). It is obvious that some people in the Apostolic Era (and before) were struck down for various offenses, but nobody in “modern” times has suffered such a fate. Of course, in Biblical accounts (in both the OT and NT), new revelation was often accompanied by miraculous signs which did not persist. The sign was given “for a time.”

Polls tell us that less than half of American Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the “Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity, and Humanity” of Our Lord Jesus Christ. They believe (as the protestants do) that it is merely a symbol. Yet, they do not (physically) die with any greater regularity than faithful Catholics (or protestants or pagans or atheists).

 

[WesleyF]

But you and I both know that folks have been doing this for centuries (regardless of what meaning one might ascribe to the phrase, “without discerning the Body of the Lord”). It is obvious that some people in the Apostolic Era (and before) were struck down for various offenses, but nobody in “modern” times has suffered such a fate.

How do you know this? In fact, many a Catholic die every day all over the world. How do you know that their death might not have been caused because of this sin? It should be noted that Paul himself says that “some have died”, which means that this sin does not always lead to physical death, but it nevertheless leads to physical death for some.

Polls tell us that less than half of American Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the “Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity, and Humanity” of Our Lord Jesus Christ. They believe (as the protestants do) that it is merely a symbol. Yet, they do not (physically) die with any greater regularity than faithful Catholics (or protestants or pagans or atheists).

Those polls are false. Jimmy Akin refuted them here -

jimmyakin.com/2008/01/ive-been-saying.html